E Train Jamaica Reconstruction

[checkmatechamp13]

6 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

Totally agree. When they tried out Atlantic ticket, even with a reduced fare the MTA ended up making money off of it because there were more riders, and they didn't need to add any service. It's almost a no-brainer to maximize existing intra-city capacity, so naturally it takes the MTA years and years to realize that

I'm pretty sure I read that it was a net loss of something like $1 million - $2 million per year. (Still a good idea, but I don't think it attracted quite enough riders to make back all the money from the lower fare)

[Mtatransit]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:22 AM, mrsman said:

Most of the traffic coming in from Parsons (and a large number from Sutphin) are transferring from bus.  A big help of some sort would be a rerouting of some of those buses to serve Jamaica/Van Wyck or a nearby  station along Hillside.  That could reduce the demand for the shuttle buses enough to make this workable.

I think it would be simpler for the MTA to run extra shuttle buses, than alter existing runs, picks and other things, considering the fact that this is a temporary service change. 

11 hours ago, mrsman said:

What it really means is that the fare structure of commuter rail needs to be thought through very carefully in order to siphon some riders off the overcrowded subways in areas within the city.  If the fare for travel on LIRR or MNRR within the city were reduced (ideally to the subway/bus fare) and a free transfer to buses/subways were provided, the MTA could better utilize some of the existing capacity along these lines

Many transit advocates in Chicago support something like this along their Metra Electric line:  

https://chi.streetsblog.org/2016/01/14/south-side-groups-make-the-metra-electric-run-like-the-cta-l/

The proposal makes a lot of sense in Chicago because it is the only commuter line with 4 tracks and electric infrastructure.  Plus it is isolated from most of the other commuter lines that emanate from the West Loop train stations (Ogilvie, Union).  The ME runs through museums, U of Chicago, and other points of interest as well as going through a heavily transit dependent neighborhood.  It certainly makes sense to at least explore the option rather than commit to an expensive capital project to extend the red line.

Something like this is a no-brainer to improve service along the Atlantic branch of LIRR.  It can probably help most Queens and Bronx commuter stations as well.

 

We got it really good here compared to Chicago, where they are two competing agency that answers to different bosses and politicians. Metra board is represented highly by suburban representatives, hence they really have no incentive to cater to Chicago City folks. On the other hand, the mayor of Chicago is concerned about "ridership decline" on the CTA if people switch to the Metra Electric. 

 

Luckily for NY, we have it under one agency, however more integration should be definitely considered. Fares is the quickest way to utilize this excess capacity. In East Asia the concept of "commuter rail" and "subway" is essentially the same. The train for example would begin at Port Washington, enter the subway at Main St do the 7 train until Grand Central, and leave the city via Metro North. Only in North America, it seems like we would rather prefer very peaky commuter rail operation.

9 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

Yea, just be sure that you're carrying a Metrocard with you. Doesn't even need to have fare on it as they can't even check that. I don't know if it's an old railroad law but you just need one to show you intended to use the subway. 

They should advertise the service but I'll admit the fares between Zone 1 and Zone 3 are quite steep. $7.75 off-peak just to travel to Jamaica (...or Flushing for that matter) is insane. $10.75 peak is a non-starter for me. If you rode from Little Neck (which is still in Zone 3 btw), it would be a lot more bang for your buck. It seems that intra-city riders get punished for using the RR.

I think the Metrocard rule is simply there so the MTA doesn't have to say the train is "free". While we know that they have no way to inspect the actual balance on the train, regular commuters may not know.

Zone 1 in general is a huge rip off, on both Metro North and LIRR. Intermediate fares are much more decently priced. In fact Babylon-RVC is only $3.25 but a much shorter distance from RVC- Jamaica is $10.00 peak and $7.25 off peak.

The same on Metro North. The intermediate fare from Fordham to N White Plain is only $3. But to/from GCT is $12.75 peak/9.75 off peak. Same goes with FOrdham vs GCT to Stamford, where the fare to GCT is literally doubled off peak ($6 vs 11.5). All this extra fare, just for crossing the "line".

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I think it would be simpler for the MTA to run extra shuttle buses, than alter existing runs, picks and other things, considering the fact that this is a temporary service change. 

We got it really good here compared to Chicago, where they are two competing agency that answers to different bosses and politicians. Metra board is represented highly by suburban representatives, hence they really have no incentive to cater to Chicago City folks. On the other hand, the mayor of Chicago is concerned about "ridership decline" on the CTA if people switch to the Metra Electric. 

 

Luckily for NY, we have it under one agency, however more integration should be definitely considered. Fares is the quickest way to utilize this excess capacity. In East Asia the concept of "commuter rail" and "subway" is essentially the same. The train for example would begin at Port Washington, enter the subway at Main St do the 7 train until Grand Central, and leave the city via Metro North. Only in North America, it seems like we would rather prefer very peaky commuter rail operation.

I think the Metrocard rule is simply there so the MTA doesn't have to say the train is "free". While we know that they have no way to inspect the actual balance on the train, regular commuters may not know.

Zone 1 in general is a huge rip off, on both Metro North and LIRR. Intermediate fares are much more decently priced. In fact Babylon-RVC is only $3.25 but a much shorter distance from RVC- Jamaica is $10.00 peak and $7.25 off peak.

The same on Metro North. The intermediate fare from Fordham to N White Plain is only $3. But to/from GCT is $12.75 peak/9.75 off peak. Same goes with FOrdham vs GCT to Stamford, where the fare to GCT is literally doubled off peak ($6 vs 11.5). All this extra fare, just for crossing the "line".

I think that many people misunderstand the difference between the various rail options. They may all operate on standard gauge trackage but that's it. Amtrak = long distance interstate traffic. MN and LIRR are commuter railroads at heart with the New Haven  added to the mix, as is NJT. PATH is a railroad in name but I consider it mass transit just like the subway system. Look at the fare structure of the railroads compared to the mass transit fares. I believe that it was VG8 who pointed out the difference years ago. The railroads charge a premium for the use of their services. Mass transit doesn't. Many city residents don't know that the LIRR used to run mass transit service in Brooklyn and Queens along Atlantic Avenue before WWII and charged mass transit fares to and from Jamaica. I'm interested in how the fare structure works when ESA opens up and the Atlantic Branch becomes a shuttle service between Jamaica and Atlantic terminal. I'm well aware of the fare structure of the LIRR and the imbalance that exists between zones and distances. You can be sure that the knows too. BTW it never ceases to amaze me that so many folks run their mouths about certain things that should be kept to themselves. Jamaica to  Penn. I've known about that situation for 25 years. My thoughts. Carry on. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Trainmaster5
Context

[Lex]

4 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

We got it really good here compared to Chicago, where they are two competing agency that answers to different bosses and politicians. Metra board is represented highly by suburban representatives, hence they really have no incentive to cater to Chicago City folks. On the other hand, the mayor of Chicago is concerned about "ridership decline" on the CTA if people switch to the Metra Electric.

The CTA/Metra situation is like the NYCT/LIRR/MNCR situation, but with better integration.

[bobtehpanda]

18 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I think that many people misunderstand the difference between the various rail options. They may all operate on standard gauge trackage but that's it. Amtrak = long distance interstate traffic. MN and LIRR are commuter railroads at heart with the New Haven  added to the mix, as is NJT. PATH is a railroad in name but I consider it mass transit just like the subway system. Look at the fare structure of the railroads compared to the mass transit fares. I believe that it was VG8 who pointed out the difference years ago. The railroads charge a premium for the use of their services. Mass transit doesn't. Many city residents don't know that the LIRR used to run mass transit service in Brooklyn and Queens along Atlantic Avenue before WWII and charged mass transit fares to and from Jamaica. I'm interested in how the fare structure works when ESA opens up and the Atlantic Branch becomes a shuttle service between Jamaica and Atlantic terminal. I'm well aware of the fare structure of the LIRR and the imbalance that exists between zones and distances. You can be sure that the knows too. BTW it never ceases to amaze me that so many folks run their mouths about certain things that should be kept to themselves. Jamaica to  Penn. I've known about that situation for 25 years. My thoughts. Carry on. 

I mean, what people are really saying is that the historical dividing lines between the types of railroad in the US is mostly arbitrary and stupid, and we should dismantle these silos in favor of something that works for commuters and mass transit passengers alike; many times, depending on what trip they're taking and the stage of the journey they're at, they're not even necessarily different people!

The one thing that boosted transit ridership above all else was the introduction of the free bus-subway transfer on every possible combination of those within 2 hours after Metrocard. A similar thing could be a similar game changer for transit ridership in NYC.

Plus one of the downsides of the super-peaky, labor-intensive commuter railroad model is that it is very expensive to run and the fares are priced accordingly. NJT, MNR and LIRR fares are extremely high, and even the well-off Long Islanders I've met over the years are having a hard time justifying the ever increasing costs.

Also one thing to note is that the railroads stopped their mass transit services because of competition and a lack of riders. If it's all in one house competition doesn't quite matter anymore, and I don't think packed straphangers are going to agree that the lack of riders is still true nearly a century later.

Edited September 10, 2020 by bobtehpanda

[mrsman]

On 9/9/2020 at 8:39 AM, danielhg121 said:

Yea, just be sure that you're carrying a Metrocard with you. Doesn't even need to have fare on it as they can't even check that. I don't know if it's an old railroad law but you just need one to show you intended to use the subway. 

They should advertise the service but I'll admit the fares between Zone 1 and Zone 3 are quite steep. $7.75 off-peak just to travel to Jamaica (...or Flushing for that matter) is insane. $10.75 peak is a non-starter for me. If you rode from Little Neck (which is still in Zone 3 btw), it would be a lot more bang for your buck. It seems that intra-city riders get punished for using the RR.

Agreed.  I think by design the higher fare was meant to discourage usage so that city residents would not crowd the RR so that there would be room for suburban passengers.  The problem with that thinking is that they are meant to serve passengers in their zone.  E Queens is just as much part of their service area as Nassau and they should serve as such.

Especially off-peak, why is it so expensive?  No good reason. 

[mrsman]

14 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I mean, what people are really saying is that the historical dividing lines between the types of railroad in the US is mostly arbitrary and stupid, and we should dismantle these silos in favor of something that works for commuters and mass transit passengers alike; many times, depending on what trip they're taking and the stage of the journey they're at, they're not even necessarily different people!

The one thing that boosted transit ridership above all else was the introduction of the free bus-subway transfer on every possible combination of those within 2 hours after Metrocard. A similar thing could be a similar game changer for transit ridership in NYC.

Plus one of the downsides of the super-peaky, labor-intensive commuter railroad model is that it is very expensive to run and the fares are priced accordingly. NJT, MNR and LIRR fares are extremely high, and even the well-off Long Islanders I've met over the years are having a hard time justifying the ever increasing costs.

Also one thing to note is that the railroads stopped their mass transit services because of competition and a lack of riders. If it's all in one house competition doesn't quite matter anymore, and I don't think packed straphangers are going to agree that the lack of riders is still true nearly a century later.

Today, in the COVID era, mass transit of all sorts is going to have to really make an effort to win back their customers.  There are enough people out there who believe mass transit to be a COVID risk that they are now going to be in great competition with people driving themselves to work and paying for parking.

A good way of being more competitive is by rethinking the fare structure.  Yes, providing  new transfer discounts between commuter rail and buses/subways would go a long way in attracting new customers.

 

[NewFlyer 230]

5 hours ago, mrsman said:

Today, in the COVID era, mass transit of all sorts is going to have to really make an effort to win back their customers.  There are enough people out there who believe mass transit to be a COVID risk that they are now going to be in great competition with people driving themselves to work and paying for parking.

A good way of being more competitive is by rethinking the fare structure.  Yes, providing  new transfer discounts between commuter rail and buses/subways would go a long way in attracting new customers.

 

Also we have to keep in mind that college students are not riding the trains and buses as much as before because colleges are closed as everything is online. 
Then we have tons of folks like myself who lost their jobs and or work at home so now there is no real reason to commute. The pandemic has caused financial strains everywhere. 
I think what could possibly help the MTA is possibly lowering the fare a little bit and see if that attracts riders. I know the MTA is in no shape to do it but it may prove to help just a bit. 
 

We will not see a huge increase in ridership until schools are back open and more jobs reopen. 

[R10 2952]

14 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I think what could possibly help the MTA is possibly lowering the fare a little bit and see if that attracts riders. I know the MTA is in no shape to do it but it may prove to help just a bit. 

For what it's worth, the $2 fare was very popular- that base fare would probably have stayed around a bit longer if the State and City had simply contributed their fair share of funding to transit in the first place.

Instead, we have an agency that's become stuck in an endless borrowing/debt-accumulation cycle; the current situation is simply the icing on a cake that's been baking for many years.  And they probably think the solution will be to raise the fare to $4 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Edited September 11, 2020 by R10 2952

[Lawrence St]

8 hours ago, mrsman said:

Today, in the COVID era, mass transit of all sorts is going to have to really make an effort to win back their customers.  There are enough people out there who believe mass transit to be a COVID risk that they are now going to be in great competition with people driving themselves to work and paying for parking.

A good way of being more competitive is by rethinking the fare structure.  Yes, providing  new transfer discounts between commuter rail and buses/subways would go a long way in attracting new customers.

 

To add to this, since almost everyone is now driving everywhere, traffic on the weekdays has become an absolute nightmare. A 35 minute trip now takes almost twice that.

Even when I take the to go into the city, what was once a crowded trip is now only somewhat crowded, if at all, which surprises me because well, its the ! Its always been crowded!

And I agree, there should be some type of fare discount or combo for those using MNRR, LIRR and the express bus that have to use the subway to get to the city.

 

[NewFlyer 230]

 

Here is what the destination signs look like for the E to Jamaica Van Wyck.

[Amtrak41]

Has anyone tried the LIRR yet between Penn Station and Jamaica with only a Metrocard ? Were the LIRR conductors informed ? 

[Kharn501]

On 9/20/2020 at 4:08 PM, Amtrak41 said:

Has anyone tried the LIRR yet between Penn Station and Jamaica with only a Metrocard ? Were the LIRR conductors informed ? 

I can verify that on Sunday night I took the LIRR to Woodside and just had to flash my Metrocard at the conductor to get the free transfer when I was returning from JFK.

[Deucey]

On 9/20/2020 at 4:08 PM, Amtrak41 said:

Has anyone tried the LIRR yet between Penn Station and Jamaica with only a Metrocard ? Were the LIRR conductors informed ? 

How does cross-honoring work?

Do the railroads have a way to swipe your MetroCard on platforms or the trains?

[azspeedbullet]

6 hours ago, Deucey said:

How does cross-honoring work?

Do the railroads have a way to swipe your MetroCard on platforms or the trains?

you show the conductor your metrocard, they do not swipe it

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, azspeedbullet said:

you show the conductor your metrocard, they do not swipe it

So you can have a MetroCard with no fare on it and ride for free?

[danielhg121]

Just now, Deucey said:

So you can have a MetroCard with no fare on it and ride for free?

Yep. The ride is essentially free.

[Deucey]

15 minutes ago, danielhg121 said:

Yep. The ride is essentially free.

Is that how it works on NJT and PATH when they’re cross-honoring?

[danielhg121]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

Is that how it works on NJT and PATH when they’re cross-honoring?

Beats me. I've only ever taken advantage of the LIRR crosshonor. 

[Kamen Rider]

The basic rule is you have to “have shown intent“ on using the subway.

 

[FamousNYLover]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:25 AM, Kharn501 said:

I can verify that on Sunday night I took the LIRR to Woodside and just had to flash my Metrocard at the conductor to get the free transfer when I was returning from JFK.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 11:17 AM, danielhg121 said:

What about those trying to get to the AirTrain? 

Tbh the conductors can't really enforce the fare between Woodside and Jamaica or Penn so this is definitely being abused either way.

People can take Far Rockaway  train to Howard Beach or  to Sutphin Blvd for Airtrain.

Majority of people choose to take Q10LTD since it's cheaper.

12 hours ago, Deucey said:

How does cross-honoring work?

Do the railroads have a way to swipe your MetroCard on platforms or the trains?

You just show MetroCard to conductors.

Most of LIRR conductors are inform.

Same for NICE Bus where NICE Bus drivers are inform to cross honor LIRR Ticket.

[B35 via Church]

To all of you that are saying that all you have to do is flash your metrocard to the LIRR c/r, how exactly did you know to flash your metrocard to the c/r?

[Kharn501]

2 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

 

People can take Far Rockaway  train to Howard Beach or  to Sutphin Blvd for Airtrain.

Majority of people choose to take Q10LTD since it's cheaper.

You just show MetroCard to conductors.

Most of LIRR conductors are inform.

Same for NICE Bus where NICE Bus drivers are inform to cross honor LIRR Ticket.

I live near Elmhurst so I took the LIRR to Woodside and then jumped on the 7 to backtrack. I try to avoid using buses whenever I can and I feel like this was significantly faster as the 7 showed up right when I went up the stairs to the Woodside stop.

22 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

To all of you that are saying that all you have to do is flash your metrocard to the LIRR c/r, how exactly did you know to flash your metrocard to the c/r?

When the conductor came down to check regular tickets for everyone, I just held up my metrocard and said I was planning to transfer to the subway. He just nodded and moved on.

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Kharn501 said:

When the conductor came down to check regular tickets for everyone, I just held up my metrocard and said I was planning to transfer to the subway. He just nodded and moved on.

So you did it out of impulse.

What I'm ultimately getting at is, I never had (or bothered) to hold up a metrocard... I just explained the situation & the c/r moved on, just the same.

[NBTA]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

To all of you that are saying that all you have to do is flash your metrocard to the LIRR c/r, how exactly did you know to flash your metrocard to the c/r?

I personally show them the service advisory, and my metrocard at the same time, then they catch on.