SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[NoHacksJustKhaks]

6 hours ago, Enjineer said:

What's next, another subway car? 

Cant wait to see someone post about that on r/thathappened lol.

[ABOGbrooklyn]

Do you guys think that the Sea Beach construction will be delayed til Fall? 😥

[Bay Ridge Express]

10 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

Do you guys think that the Sea Beach construction will be delayed til Fall? 😥

It's been super delayed at this point... that's why I said in a previous post the stations will open probably never, because that's the state that they look like they're in, lol!

It's impossible not to have gotten used to it by now, though. The only thing I hate about it is that it overcrowds the B9.

[R68OnBroadway]

I think they should just install switches between FHP and New Utrecht as FHP and 8th shouldn’t hold up the project.

[ABOGbrooklyn]

15 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

It's been super delayed at this point... that's why I said in a previous post the stations will open probably never, because that's the state that they look like they're in, lol!

It's impossible not to have gotten used to it by now, though. The only thing I hate about it is that it overcrowds the B9.

 

7 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

I think they should just install switches between FHP and New Utrecht as FHP and 8th shouldn’t hold up the project.

Is 8th avenue really causing that much delay? Is it cause of the damn elevator?

[Lawrence St]

29 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

Do you guys think that the Sea Beach construction will be delayed til Fall? 😥

8th Av is giving them structural problems which is why that stretch is delayed.

[ABOGbrooklyn]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

8th Av is giving them structural problems which is why that stretch is delayed.

I wish the MTA could be more transparent with it's customers and tell us that.. it's been 4 years already.. 

[brakethrow]

Had a t/o that was running around 20-25 mph between stations from Flatbush to President. Its leader was roughly 10 mins away so I didn't understand why he was running so slow. He was even braking at the start of platforms at those speeds.. 

Maybe fresh out of school car ? Or traumatized by a 12-9 in the past ? I'm just trying to make sense of this..

 

Living near the Brighton as well I knew I should've just taken the . 

Edited April 10, 2019 by brakethrow

[Lance]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:22 PM, trainfan22 said:

Some dude bought a bunch of plants on the train...

 

Can't be any worse than the guy who brought a 30-foot long I-beam onto the  train last month.

[Jchambers2120]

7 hours ago, brakethrow said:

Had a t/o that was running around 20-25 mph between stations from Flatbush to President. Its leader was roughly 10 mins away so I didn't understand why he was running so slow. He was even braking at the start of platforms at those speeds.. 

Maybe fresh out of school car ? Or traumatized by a 12-9 in the past ? I'm just trying to make sense of this..

 

Living near the Brighton as well I knew I should've just taken the . 

If you really want to understand take the next test and make it through school car. 

I’m sure if the T/O in question was moving at an ‘acceptable’ speed for you and overran a station or hit a signal you’d be questioning why was he/she running so fast.

[brakethrow]

4 hours ago, Jchambers2120 said:

If you really want to understand take the next test and make it through school car. 

I’m sure if the T/O in question was moving at an ‘acceptable’ speed for you and overran a station or hit a signal you’d be questioning why was he/she running so fast.

Unless it's rush hour when trains are bunching, 99% of the time trains are moving at max speeds between stations along that stretch (30-40 mph). Which is what I would consider decent.

There was no chance of him hitting a signal as I stated before, his leader was 10 mins away - all greens.

Maybe you thought I was being sarcastic with the school car and 12-9 comments but I wasn't. Those are literally the first two things that come to mind whenever I'm on a train that's running alot slower than usual despite greens ahead.

Braking into stations at 20 mph right at the start of the platforms - I'm pretty sure anyone would question that.

 

 

[paulrivera]

21 hours ago, brakethrow said:

Had a t/o that was running around 20-25 mph between stations from Flatbush to President. Its leader was roughly 10 mins away so I didn't understand why he was running so slow. He was even braking at the start of platforms at those speeds.. 

Maybe fresh out of school car ? Or traumatized by a 12-9 in the past ? I'm just trying to make sense of this..

 

Living near the Brighton as well I knew I should've just taken the . 

Maybe he's a former B/O that's grown so used to Vision Zero™ he thought it applied to the subway as well.

[Trainmaster5]

14 hours ago, Jchambers2120 said:

If you really want to understand take the next test and make it through school car. 

I’m sure if the T/O in question was moving at an ‘acceptable’ speed for you and overran a station or hit a signal you’d be questioning why was he/she running so fast.

If the T/O was on schedule  I fail to see the poster's complaint.  If the T/O barreled down the road and then had to wait at President St. for his lineup to come in I'd personally consider that piss-poor operation. I posted a situation I had when I was a brand new C/R and had a speed demon M/M. On our last trip from Flatbush to Lenox we would arrive at 145th St 9-10 minutes early every Sunday night. The tower operator at Nostrand Junction,  the ATD at Chambers St, and the Times Square TD finally got fed up with our operation and called the Lenox TD . The was the last time my M/M pulled that stunt.  The Chief Transportation Officer lived upstairs in Esplanade,  above the terminal.  He,  along with a Motor Instructor neighbor,  came downstairs and reamed my M/M out for improper operation ( excessive speed) and not keeping to schedule. I was criticized for allowing the speeding to occur by not slowing down my door operation. So the younger riders loved us because of the speeding but supervision and the older standees weren't too thrilled with our work.  The Chief reminded me of something I was taught in school car. A C/R operating mid-train with proper speed should never have to hold on to anything.  If he does that means those in the rear are being thrown around.  We were lucky that night because we didn't get written up. It still amazes me when the people criticizing the T/O for the operation are ignorant of the fact that the C/R and supervision are the arbiters of a train's speed. Except in OPTO the C/R is in charge. Same thing applies to the LIRR and MN last time I looked. Man told a class of us years ago that if you want speed maybe Nascar or IndyCar is a better fit for you. Carry on. 

 

[Jchambers2120]

6 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If the T/O was on schedule  I fail to see the poster's complaint.  If the T/O barreled down the road and then had to wait at President St. for his lineup to come in I'd personally consider that piss-poor operation. I posted a situation I had when I was a brand new C/R and had a speed demon M/M. On our last trip from Flatbush to Lenox we would arrive at 145th St 9-10 minutes early every Sunday night. The tower operator at Nostrand Junction,  the ATD at Chambers St, and the Times Square TD finally got fed up with our operation and called the Lenox TD . The was the last time my M/M pulled that stunt.  The Chief Transportation Officer lived upstairs in Esplanade,  above the terminal.  He,  along with a Motor Instructor neighbor,  came downstairs and reamed my M/M out for improper operation ( excessive speed) and not keeping to schedule. I was criticized for allowing the speeding to occur by not slowing down my door operation. So the younger riders loved us because of the speeding but supervision and the older standees weren't too thrilled with our work.  The Chief reminded me of something I was taught in school car. A C/R operating mid-train with proper speed should never have to hold on to anything.  If he does that means those in the rear are being thrown around.  We were lucky that night because we didn't get written up. It still amazes me when the people criticizing the T/O for the operation are ignorant of the fact that the C/R and supervision are the arbiters of a train's speed. Except in OPTO the C/R is in charge. Same thing applies to the LIRR and MN last time I looked. Man told a class of us years ago that if you want speed maybe Nascar or IndyCar is a better fit for you. Carry on. 

 

Your posts are always informative TM! His complaint also stumped me that’s why I told him to take the test & find out. What’s the point of racing just to be held for time?

Or now the higher ups notice the runtimes start going down and now they want to start squeezing in more trips & keep the pay the same... I’ve heard rumors about the four and five trippers on the 6 back in the days uh uh.

I’ve heard RCC going off on people for running 5 minutes hot, I can’t imagine 9-10 minutes what were y’all doing? Lol. 

[brakethrow]

"Take the test" was a smart comment that wasn't needed. For the most part we're on this forum to gain knowledge on the system..that's why I asked. 

Of course I'm seeing operations from a different perspective being that I don't work for the system.

[RR503]

HTT has (***theoretically***) been abolished, which is good. 

Generally, while it’s important to keep in mind that there are reasons for ops to go slow (GTs, weird schedules, toxic disciplinary culture, etc) it’s also important to recognize the impact speed has on service. An single op (or CR) on the  or  who is moving too cautiously can throw an entire rush hour through cascading congestion; a slow crew at any time of day can cause gappy service and kill merges, and these are things that we have to be cognizant of. We shouldn’t encourage risky practices or complain about legitimate slowing and we should recognize that most variability is a function of the ridiculously punitive managerial culture in NYCT, but we also should remember that there are very real operational consequences to be had in low speeds/long dwells.

This has sadly become one of the driving pieces of logic behind CBTC — management does not trust the people of RTO to operate a consistent rush hour railroad at any respectable throughput. 

[Enjineer]

10 minutes ago, RR503 said:

This has sadly become one of the driving pieces of logic behind CBTC — management does not trust the people of RTO to operate a consistent rush hour railroad at any respectable throughput

I also don't trust riders to make that possible. If CBTC can allow for better service management between small gaps caused by things like crowding and passengers holding doors, then I don't see any disadvantages here. Sure, there's a lot of changes to be made in management, but I can imagine it's very frustrating if a train crew is doing everything properly and the passengers are messing things up. 

[brakethrow]

Not to mention he was already two minutes behind schedule with a train crawling directly behind it at Franklin. 

[RR503]

8 minutes ago, Enjineer said:

I also don't trust riders to make that possible. If CBTC can allow for better service management between small gaps caused by things like crowding and passengers holding doors, then I don't see any disadvantages here. Sure, there's a lot of changes to be made in management, but I can imagine it's very frustrating if a train crew is doing everything properly and the passengers are messing things up. 

I’d argue that just as we can’t let causative analyses of operator variability stop at the operators themselves (we need to understand the managerial culture that drives behavior) we can’t leave “riders cause delays” where it is. The system exists to transport them, and while I’m sure it’d run better without them, we need to understand what causes their most impactful behaviors. So, for example, it’s true that people hold doors and crowd already crowded lines, but they do so at least in part because they can’t rely on the next train to come and because the structure of system frequency encourages highly concentrated ridership on a few corridors. That’s the sort of thing we need to be working on. 

To the point of CBTC: that signal system’s biggest benefits are usually seen in station operation. Human operators vary widely in the speed at which they enter a stop, how they brake, how they treat station time signals, etc — all variabilities that lead to capacity loss. CBTC eliminates the human element, a normalization that usually has a pretty significant capacity impact. 

[whz1995]

22 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Human operators vary widely in the speed at which they enter a stop, how they brake, how they treat station time signals, etc

I agree, some T/O are driving slower than others. I had a rush hour A trip last week and the T/O kept braking hard before pulling in the stations and crawling to stop the train. And this was not related signals because I kept watching all the signals after he braked hard in the first station. And the trip took a little longer than usual and it was unsmoothed. Other T/Os on the A line tend to just brake slightly and kept the speed and then make a final brake to stop train.

And I was also on J train whose T/O overshot the 121st station when the 121st station was just back in service for a few days. I thought there were at least three cars out of the station. It ended up the T/O walked all three cars and asked who need to get off.

CBTC would definitely be helpful to prevent those.

Edited April 11, 2019 by whz1995

[N6 Limited]

10 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If the T/O was on schedule  I fail to see the poster's complaint.  If the T/O barreled down the road and then had to wait at President St. for his lineup to come in I'd personally consider that piss-poor operation. I posted a situation I had when I was a brand new C/R and had a speed demon M/M. On our last trip from Flatbush to Lenox we would arrive at 145th St 9-10 minutes early every Sunday night. The tower operator at Nostrand Junction,  the ATD at Chambers St, and the Times Square TD finally got fed up with our operation and called the Lenox TD . The was the last time my M/M pulled that stunt.  The Chief Transportation Officer lived upstairs in Esplanade,  above the terminal.  He,  along with a Motor Instructor neighbor,  came downstairs and reamed my M/M out for improper operation ( excessive speed) and not keeping to schedule. I was criticized for allowing the speeding to occur by not slowing down my door operation. So the younger riders loved us because of the speeding but supervision and the older standees weren't too thrilled with our work.  The Chief reminded me of something I was taught in school car. A C/R operating mid-train with proper speed should never have to hold on to anything.  If he does that means those in the rear are being thrown around.  We were lucky that night because we didn't get written up. It still amazes me when the people criticizing the T/O for the operation are ignorant of the fact that the C/R and supervision are the arbiters of a train's speed. Except in OPTO the C/R is in charge. Same thing applies to the LIRR and MN last time I looked. Man told a class of us years ago that if you want speed maybe Nascar or IndyCar is a better fit for you. Carry on. 

 

There's the problem.

The T/O went fast (as desired by CUSTOMERS), did not trip any timers (many unnecessary and not calibrated properly), arrived at the terminal 10 mins early (Due to padding), gets in trouble.

Riders want quick reliable service, Operation/Supervisions says "NO". Trains slow down, are perpetually late (metrics), ridership drops, MTA is bewildered. 

Can't make this stuff up.

3 hours ago, Jchambers2120 said:

Your posts are always informative TM! His complaint also stumped me that’s why I told him to take the test & find out. What’s the point of racing just to be held for time?

Or now the higher ups notice the runtimes start going down and now they want to start squeezing in more trips & keep the pay the same... I’ve heard rumors about the four and five trippers on the 6 back in the days uh uh.

I’ve heard RCC going off on people for running 5 minutes hot, I can’t imagine 9-10 minutes what were y’all doing? Lol. 

They were providing the service passengers wanted.

54 minutes ago, Enjineer said:

I also don't trust riders to make that possible. If CBTC can allow for better service management between small gaps caused by things like crowding and passengers holding doors, then I don't see any disadvantages here. Sure, there's a lot of changes to be made in management, but I can imagine it's very frustrating if a train crew is doing everything properly and the passengers are messing things up. 

Many riders hold doors because who knows when the next train is coming. Even now with the countdown clock, the next train can be a min or two away, but then gets held in the station "by the train's dispatcher" when it does arrive, many riders have connections to make down the line.

Also, I've heard C/O play the "holding doors" announcement only for the train to sit with the doors closed before leaving the station, or  crawl for various reasons, including workers on the tracks. Many times the holding is for a few seconds but the operational delays are much longer and frustrating.

Though, it's annoying when passengers don't step into the train , or step in like molasses and you're trying to get into the train and the C/O starts closing the doors.

[Trainmaster5]

Jchambers 2120 seems to have a better grasp of how scheduling works in RTO than most.  The schedule is not written in stone.  It's not from the mountain top or any burning bush. It's simply a guideline to be adhered to  with a built in disclaimer. I'll give you a simple scenario to ponder. Let's say the schedule gives you 25 minutes to travel from New Lots to Nevins. 3 train leaves New Lots at 7:45 am so the average rider figures an 8:10 arrival at Nevins.  I think the train might be at Nevins at that time 3 times a month. I know that for a fact because I used to work OT and make a 7:50 am trip from New Lots on the 5 and would connect with it or wait for it at Nevins. Maybe most posters would say the 3 train was late. Remember I said that the schedule was a guideline.  That 3 train and the 2 train behind it would get slammed daily at Atlantic because of the LIRR train that terminated basically cross platform. I would see the 2 train between Bergen and Atlantic and knew where the 3 was before seeing it.  At Nevins I'd pick up the crowd transferring for East Side service while the crew on the 4 train behind me would tease me and my C/R about earning the OT money the hard way. I was doing this regularly on Redbirds. A NTT wouldn't make a bit of difference. If you don't know the job remain quiet and learn something sometime.  Carry on. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Trainmaster5
Additional details

[RR503]

18 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Jchambers 2120 seems to have a better grasp of how scheduling works in RTO than most.  The schedule is not written in stone.  It's not from the mountain top or any burning bush. It's simply a guideline to be adhered to  with a built in disclaimer. I'll give you a simple scenario to ponder. Let's say the schedule gives you 25 minutes to travel from New Lots to Nevins. 3 train leaves New Lots at 7:45 am so the average rider figures an 8:10 arrival at Nevins.  I think the train might be at Nevins at that time 3 times a month. I know that for a fact because I used to work OT and make a 7:50 am trip from New Lots on the 5 and would connect with it or wait for it at Nevins. Maybe most posters would say the 3 train was late. Remember I said that the schedule was a guideline.  That 3 train and the 2 train behind it would get slammed daily at Atlantic because of the LIRR train that terminated basically cross platform. I would see the 2 train between Bergen and Atlantic and knew where the 3 was before seeing it.  At Nevins I'd pick up the crowd transferring for East Side service while the crew on the 4 train behind me would tease me and my C/R about earning the OT money the hard way. I was doing this regularly on Redbirds. A NTT wouldn't make a bit of difference. If you don't know the job remain quiet and learn something sometime.  Carry on. 

But this is a failure in scheduling, no? There's certainly much to be bemoaned and fixed in the way schedules are written these days -- flagging being accounted for by placing 5 minute holds in convenient places, merges being made to work via the same, OTP being maintained by scheduling asymmetrical runtimes approaching the terminal -- but schedules should be (really, have to be) more than 'guidelines.' The system falls apart if they're just that; merges are thrown off, capacity doesn't meet its expected value, trains fall ahead/behind creating gaps, TOs and CRs don't know if they're under or over performing, etc. Running an unscheduled railroad with the complexity of New York's is a recipe for congestion and chaos on the operational end, and is a disservice to the commitment to a certain level of customer service that is a schedule on the rider's end. I'd argue that we can absolutely say that today's schedules are frequently garbage, but that we shouldn't say that they should be thought of in that way for the future. 

Honestly, what they should be doing to the entire system is what they did to the IRT last year: taking a close look at runtimes between every station pair for a given time of day, schedule, say, the 60th or 75th percentile runtime from that, and then adjust merges to fit. For the metrics to not get thrown off, they should then just simply report runtimes rather than OTP -- no risk of padding if the metric is absolute. 

Something else worth looking into is getting more granular schedules. 30 second resolution makes it hard to work with weird frequencies especially as they ascend, which in turn leads to situations where you're forced to schedule 90 second headways with the expectation that the resulting congestion will normalize it to 110 or 120. Needless to say, this is bad for service, and maybe is something worth looking into. 

[Calvin]

On some IRT terminals, I wonder what was the cause of the two platforms not being used, except the middle platform is the only one in-use?

 

Img example:

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Calvin

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Calvin said:

On some IRT terminals, I wonder what was the cause of the two platforms not being used, except the middle platform is the only one in-use?

 

Img example:

 

Simply put, those stations aren't busy enough.