Queens Existing Conditions Report Released

[Lawrence St]

48 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I'm looking at the potential change in my area and that by itself is gonna receive significant backlash, I know it. From what I saw:

 

• Q29: Appears to turn onto Penelope Avenue and replace the Q38 between Dry Harbor Road & Queens Boulevard. Where it goes from there I'm not sure.
• Q38: The Penelope Avenue segment is entirely eliminated, replaced partly with the Q29. The Eliot Ave segment appears to head on to Ridgewood.
• Q47: Would go straight down 69th Street, replacing the Q67 south of Grand Avenue
• 80th Street service north of Dry Harbor Road eliminated
• Q18: Remains on 58th Street, and then IDK what it does when it gets to Grand
• Q53: Appears to be truncated to Queens Center Mall
• Q39/Q67: Appears to be merged into one route. Forest Avenue segment of Q39 and Borden Avenue/Industrial Maspeth segments on Q67 are retained.
• Q104?: Appears to be rerouted to Jackson Heights, then replace the Q53 to Queens Center Mall.

 

Other things I noticed from the map:

 

• Q11 will now longer serve Hamilton Beach, and will join Woodhaven Boulevard at Rockaway Blvd, serving more of Centerville Street and Ozone Park
• Q19 will now go down 108 Street and Roosevelt Avenue, but it looks like the Q48 will still exist in some form. 
• Q66  (or some split of the Q66): Appears to go to Roosevelt Island
• Q103: Eliminated
• Some route is going across 59th Street to what may be Columbus Circle.
• Q33 appears to head south towards Queens Center Mall from 82nd Street via the Q29. Service to 74th Street eliminated. 
• Q32 is truncated to 74th Street.
• There's a new north-south route in the 90s.

After hearing they went with a grid, that was all I need to know regarding how this service plan was gonna show up. This doesn't even take into consideration the express buses. 

Be prepared...MTA is going to get a lot of angry riders, because this is going to worse then the Bronx redesign.

[paulrivera]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

No direct service to any of the terminals inside JFK... Buses terminate at Federal Circle.

They finally caught on that the Q10 carries air inside JFK airport 🤦‍♂️
 

Damn it man, Airtrain’s too crowded with its shit headways, and now the Q10’s on it’s way out?

Eff that, I’ll start using LaGuardia and White Plains. At least at LGA it looks like the Q70’s staying put.

Edited December 18, 2019 by paulrivera

[Lawrence St]

10 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

They finally caught on that the Q10 carries air inside JFK airport 🤦‍♂️
 

Damn it man, Airtrain’s too crowded with its shit headways, and now the Q10’s on it’s way out?

Eff that, I’ll start using LaGuardia and White Plains. At least at LGA it looks like the Q70’s staying put.

Maybe if they actually made the route stop at the USEFUL terminals it would carry people.

[paulrivera]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Maybe if they actually made the route stop at the USEFUL terminals it would carry people.

If the Q3 and Q10 (and eventually the B15 also) indeed turn at Federal Circle they're gonna lose the working class employees that still use the line (baggage handlers, cleaners, cargo workers, etc.) too, and then all those lines will be in even deeper shit.

Pretty creative way to spin that lack of a second fare zone tho. They know the Airtrain between Federal Circle and the terminals is free, but regardless if they're transferring to the Airtrain for the terminals or the PA shuttle buses, that second transfer's gonna suck for the workers.

[Kamen Rider]

If I remember right, don’t they want to remodel JFK once LAG is done? This change could be in anticipation of that. Not have to have the bus fight through traffic into the main area.

[B35 via Church]

Some more findings:

- An interborough route running from Brookdale Hosp. to Jamaica.... Looks to go from Hegeman/98th > New Lots > then the Q8 to (somewhere in) Jamaica....

- Q52 diversion to Gateway Mall

- Q53 doesn't look like it runs to the Rockaways.... Looks like it begins just south of the Belt along Cross Bay... Can't tell what it does, past QCM.

- Something resembling an SBS route running b/w Flushing & [QCM / Woodhaven blvd ], via HHE, via College Pt. blvd....

- Q40 diversion that has it going 142nd > Linden > Sutphin (see Q9 below)

- Q9 extension to Federal Circle (as mentioned earlier)... However, it's to run via 130th > 109th > Lakewood > Sutphin, to (somewhere in) Jamaica (see Q40, above)

- Q35 diversion that has it going via Rockaway Beach Blvd & up B. 116th to Newport

- What looks to be some sort of combination of the Q22 & part of the Q114, running between B. 129th/Newport & that general area around JFK Depot...
Looks like it's running from B. 129th/Newport > along Newport > B. 116th > Beach Channel Dr > then does the Q114 b/w Mott & Five Towns > to continue on Rockaway Blvd to Farmers...

- Can't tell what (or if) it runs west of Cross Bay, but at minimum, the Q7 looks to be running from it (Rockaway Blvd ), clear along Rockaway blvd to.... yep, JFK Depot.

- Q113's footprint in the Rockaways are lessened... Still terminates at Wavecrest Gardens, but service east of B. 19th is eliminated.... NB buses go Seagirt > B. 19th > Cornaga > B. 19th (not a typo) > Mott > Central > then current Q113 to Jamaica

- Q26/Q27 looks to be coupled.... Both routes run between Downtown Flushing & QCC.... Both routes take on the current Q26 routing from Downtown Flushing to Hollis Ct. Blvd (short of 47th).... The difference between the two is that the [Q26 to QCC is an extension of the current Q26 via HHE & via Springfield] & the [Q27 retains the current routing between 47th/Hollis Ct. & QCC].....

- no sign of the Q1, Q36, or the Q50....

- Q42 actually serving less of Addisleigh Park... looks like it's turning off Merrick at Brinkerhoff, down 174th, to straddle the eastern end of St. Albans park, to eventually end at Merrick/Linden....

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, paulrivera said:

.....At least at LGA it looks like the Q70’s staying put.

Negative.

Looking at this map, they're suggesting running it to Brooklyn (as in, Williamsburg - which that idea has been on the table in the past)..... So, kiss whatever reliability & consistency it has goodbye.....

I'm not gonna lie though... As a Brooklynite, if that falls through, I'm still fin to abuse the f*** out of that - and not for getting to/from any airport either ...

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Maybe if they actually made the route stop at the USEFUL terminals it would carry people.

Generally speaking, I'm inclined to agree....

I mean, although I understood it, that was the initial concern I had with the shifting from T4 to T5.....

Once upon a time, buses actually stopped at multiple terminals.... They had to stop that, because it came to a point where buses spent almost an hour inside JFK alone (hence the justification "on paper" of the Q10a [that much of nobody really used, since the riderbase was too narrow]).... Shit was ridiculous....

Edited December 18, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Union Tpke]

I think the Q60 is extended to Columbus Circle, instead of the proposed Q66 SBS in the past.

The Glen Oaks branch of the Q46 is gone.

@B35 via Church @BM5 via Woodhaven I just started a Google MyMaps Collaboration where we can add the new routes based on that map. I added the Q44 so far.

Here is the link. Please, no one sabotage this. I made it editable because I don't have enough time to do the whole thing and because the map is illegible in some places.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1szEEW9jIB6IdRzyBluH6-5l3QsG4nu3K&usp=sharing

Edited December 18, 2019 by Union Tpke

[67thAve]

This is shaping up to be a bigger disaster than Baltimore or Wellington.

While Queens does need a bus network redesign, some of these ideas seem downright asinine, looking good on paper but not in reality, though the map is also very unclear. Route numbering is also going to be a big problem if these proposed changes are correct - relocating the Q83 from Eastern Queens to Woodhaven Boulevard will cause a ton of confusion.

That being said, I do like the idea of a Q43 extension to LIJ.

However, the big disaster with this will be the first day of operation. The MTA, befitting of its current state, will release an "interactive online map" with the bells and whistles, but no printed publicity. No schedules and no maps, because "everything is online". That's not a damn excuse when you're implementing the biggest changes to the Queens bus network in history.

I would also opt to begin all Queens bus services with a set of numbers starting in the 200s, simply to avoid confusion upon implementation.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by 67thAve

[Union Tpke]

Notice the fail in this image: 

Yeah, the Q12 totally runs along Liberty Avenue.. Cough Cough Q112. If they can't get that right, we're screwed.

[Union Tpke]

5 minutes ago, 67thAve said:

This is shaping up to be a bigger disaster than Baltimore or Wellington.

While Queens does need a bus network redesign, some of these ideas seem downright asinine, looking good on paper but not in reality, though the map is also very unclear. Route numbering is also going to be a big problem if these proposed changes are correct - relocating the Q83 from Eastern Queens to Woodhaven Boulevard will cause a ton of confusion.

That being said, I do like the idea of a Q43 extension to LIJ.

However, the big disaster with this will be the first day of operation. The MTA, befitting of its current state, will release an "interactive online map" with the bells and whistles, but no printed publicity. No schedules and no maps, because "everything is online". That's not a damn excuse when you're implementing the biggest changes to the Queens bus network in history.

I would also opt to begin all Queens bus services with a set of numbers starting in the 200s, simply to avoid confusion upon implementation.

 

You hit it right on the head.

 

[JeremiahC99]

7 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Notice the fail in this image: 

Yeah, the Q12 totally runs along Liberty Avenue.. Cough Cough Q112. If they can't get that right, we're screwed.

Who the hell proofreads this thing?

[67thAve]

3 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Who the hell proofreads this thing?

No 1. It helps 2 save $$$ for d MTA, as u dont need 2 hir a prufreder.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Wait for Dec 30th for the whole redesign to be released. Remember the point of the "last" Redesign meeting is to present an overall draft, not all the routes planned.

Edited December 18, 2019 by MysteriousBtrain

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

Notice the fail in this image: 

Yeah, the Q12 totally runs along Liberty Avenue.. Cough Cough Q112. If they can't get that right, we're screwed.

Wait so the Q10 branches are being split? What in the world are they doing!?

 

Yup, were screwed.

[Brillant93]

6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Wait so the Q10 branches are being split? What in the world are they doing!?

 

Yup, were screwed.

How is that two branches of one route being split is being screwed? If some people need one branch then they’ll make a route just for they one branch.

[Lex]

49 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Wait so the Q10 branches are being split? What in the world are they doing!?

 

Yup, were screwed.

There are things to be said about the draft.

This is most certainly not one of them. Hell, i would've split the designations years ago for clarity.

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Wait so the Q10 branches are being split? What in the world are they doing!?

 

Yup, were screwed.

The section on 130th St is actually the lightest of the whole line so that I can care less about.

130th is gonna be replaced by a revamped Q9 if I understand the map correctly.

[NY1635]

4 hours ago, Lex said:

There are things to be said about the draft.

This is most certainly not one of them. Hell, i would've split the designations years ago for clarity.

It's simple: The MTA wants to consolidate all the routes in Queens and scrub the private bus line history away. 

Queens is difficult because a lot of the current routes used to belong the Green Bus Lines, Queens Surface, Jamaica Bus Lines, and Triboro Coach.

[Brillant93]

8 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

It's simple: The MTA wants to consolidate all the routes in Queens and scrub the private bus line history away. 

Queens is difficult because a lot of the current routes used to belong the Green Bus Lines, Queens Surface, Jamaica Bus Lines, and Triboro Coach.

Consolidate routes and rework the system to reflect a grid like one, yes, to get rid of the old private bus route history isn’t the case at all. If anything judging from the rough, rough, photo we got it seems like they’re reworking some private bus routes to cover more areas. 

[Lawrence St]

Since this seems like a entire network revamp, I wonder why Bronx was different? They completely rebuilt the network from the ground up for Queens but modified some of the routes in the Bronx.

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

I think the Q60 is extended to Columbus Circle, instead of the proposed Q66 SBS in the past.

Exact same thought came to mind when I saw that; "so they're scrapping the 66 & sending the 60 to Columbus Circle instead huh"....

7 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Notice the fail in this image: 

Yeah, the Q12 totally runs along Liberty Avenue.. Cough Cough Q112. If they can't get that right, we're screwed.

10 + 1 = 11....

11+ 1 = 12....

Who cares about the accuracy of the routes (and their nomenclatures) when it's all about numbers to them..... 10 bucks says that row of cells were done on a spreadsheet..... Click & drag the lower right hand corner of the cell downwards to have the numbers in successive cells increment 

7 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Wait for Dec 30th for the whole redesign to be released. Remember the point of the "last" Redesign meeting is to present an overall draft, not all the routes planned.

They're throwing fish on a line to see "who" is going to offer the most pushback with the strongest conviction.....

Edited December 18, 2019 by B35 via Church

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Wait so the Q10 branches are being split? What in the world are they doing!?

Yup, were screwed.

The Q10 is branched down there more or less due to the Q37's inefficiencies; service along 133rd & 114th for what? They could've easily simply kept the Q10 as "the Lefferts route" & have it end at Lefferts AIRTrain & have that be that - killing off that dead mileage along Pan Am road in the process... But for whatever reason, they want to have Federal Circle be this major bus terminal....

To sum it up, the Q10 does too much in that area & the Q37 doesn't do enough.... The Aqueduct experiment (lol) needs to be dropped & more of a focus needs to be had on how to better serve S. Ozone Park residents - not just playing musical chairs year in & year out with the layover area & terminal on that end of the Q37.....

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the sense that those people down around 130th tend to value getting to Jamaica over getting to the .... I don't see running Q9's along 130th / de-branching the Q10 as anything to be outraged about... As others have said, that branch of the Q10 tends to carry light & they are spot on with that......

52 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

It's simple: The MTA wants to consolidate all the routes in Queens and scrub the private bus line history away. 

Queens is difficult because a lot of the current routes used to belong the Green Bus Lines, Queens Surface, Jamaica Bus Lines, and Triboro Coach.

Yeah, because that's more important than saving a buck....

34 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Since this seems like a entire network revamp, I wonder why Bronx was different? They completely rebuilt the network from the ground up for Queens but modified some of the routes in the Bronx.

I guess because the Bronx had a revamp more recently (1984).....

Edited December 18, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Cait Sith]

14 hours ago, paulrivera said:

If the Q3 and Q10 (and eventually the B15 also) indeed turn at Federal Circle they're gonna lose the working class employees that still use the line (baggage handlers, cleaners, cargo workers, etc.) too, and then all those lines will be in even deeper shit.

Pretty creative way to spin that lack of a second fare zone tho. They know the Airtrain between Federal Circle and the terminals is free, but regardless if they're transferring to the Airtrain for the terminals or the PA shuttle buses, that second transfer's gonna suck for the workers.

  I wouldn't say they would lose the working class employees when you consider that those same people still use the AirTrain to get to the Q10 and Q3 from all of the other terminals.

19 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

They do? What's it look like?

18 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

From what I can (somewhat) discern from said map screenshot...

- A Northern Blvd route running clear along Northern from Northern blvd to Marathon Pkwy... Turns on Marathon Pkwy to HHE.... Takes HHE to LNP, to end where the Q30 does in Little Neck...

- A Springfield Blvd route running from Ft. Totten to (what looks like) Farmers/Rockaway blvd... Basically a combination of [the Q13 along Bell] and [the Q27 between Bell & 120th], with a southward extension to that general area around JFK Depot...

- A Francis Lewis Blvd. route that's basically a combination of the Q84 in Springfield Gardens, the Q77 along Francis Lewis, and the Q76 along Francis Lewis... Can't really tell what it does after reaching Willets Pt. (blvd)...

- A 188th st/Utopia Pkwy route running from Cambria Hgts. to the LeHavre apts... Basically [the Q83 between 227th & Liberty/Farmers], [the Q3 to Hillside], [the Q17 from Hillside to Utopia Pkwy], then runs clear up Utopia Pkwy. to the Cross Island, where it does the QM2 routing to Powell's Cove, where this suggested route ends....

- No direct service to any of the terminals inside JFK... Buses terminate at Federal Circle.

- Q9 extension to 150th av (over the current Q10 130th st branch)

- Q25 diversion north of Northern Blvd. that runs up to Poppenhusen (Shore Front Park) via College Point Blvd

- Q43 extension to LIJ

- Q44 truncation to Briarwood that takes the Whitestone Expwy. service rd (instead of Parsons) to get to/from the Bronx....

- A Linden Blvd. route that runs from 235th to Rockaway Blvd

- Something branching off along Hillside av to go Winchester <> Douglaston Pkwy > HHE > Community Dr., to North Shore Hospital

- Something resembling a combination of the old Q74 (with an extension) & today's Q25 (with modifications)... Looks like it begins at Union Tpke , then does the old Q74 to HHE, continues up along Main, to then go (what looks like) Northern > Linden (pl) > Ulmer > 130th, to 20th av... It clearly runs past the shopping center along 20th, but I can't really tell what it's doing over there around Clintonville...

- Can't tell where in Jamaica it terminates, but what looks to be a Sutphin Blvd route that does the Q7 south of Rockaway Blvd (as in, looping around JFK Cargo Plaza), to go on to ending at Federal Circle...

- Q83 diversion to JFK (Federal Circle) via Liberty, via Farmers

- Q84 truncation to Springfield blvd

- A westward Q112 extension to (what looks like) Crescent via Liberty & via Crescent

- Something branching off along Guy R. Brewer to run along Baisley, to then do the current Q85 b/w Baisley & (what looks like) LIRR Rosedale, where this thing terminates...

It looks more like a Q7 extension than a Q112 extension. After zooming in, two green lines overlap, and it looks like the Q7 is the one getting extended.

I just found the map in question, and I noticed some routes aren't in there, I hope it's because they're safe(because I don't see the Q41 on there).

Also, is it me or did they send the Q8 to Brownsville???? It looks like they sent it to what appears to be Brookdale Hospital. If that appears to be the case, I see some big changes for the B15 coming....

 

5 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

The section on 130th St is actually the lightest of the whole line so that I can care less about.

130th is gonna be replaced by a revamped Q9 if I understand the map correctly.

Nah, 130th Street is definitely more heavier than Lefferts by a lot. The 130th Street branch sees a lot more riders than Lefferts south of Rockaway all the way to Bergen Road in the Airport.

 

17 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm trying to suppress my wrath hold my opinions off until the plans actually get released (as this map isn't 100% clear), but to be perfectly honest, I'm not surprised by either.... (What looks to be a) Q44 truncation is clearly an attempt to speed the thing up - but if they're going to end up going through with that, it's going to be at the detriment of a shit ton of riders... Jamaica bound Q44's are still crushloaded past Main/QB..... It would loom far more grave than stymieing B46 SBS' at DeKalb.... You aren't going to get people to want to get off at Briarwood to take the train (or Q60) to get to Jamaica.... Worse than that, it's looking like they're suggesting getting rid of the Q20 (A and B) to have that funky aforementioned Q74/Q25 combo as the Main st local instead, on top of it... In other words, Main st riders won't have a direct ride to Jamaica....

As for the cutbacks inside JFK, that's all about eradicating dead mileage (and quite frankly, trying to force more people into using the AIRTrain)....

The map design is horrible, so there's no clear way of telling if they're axing the Q20A/B. I would've accepted them ending the route at Sutphin/Jamaica, but Briarwood....for one, there's NO layover spots there. It's almost impossible for them to shorten the route there just for that reason alone. That will cause a massive controversy in that area alone if it becomes the case.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

It looks more like a Q7 extension than a Q112 extension. After zooming in, two green lines overlap, and it looks like the Q7 is the one getting extended.

That's what I initially thought (they're going to have the Q7 run from Crescent to that area around JFK Depot) - until I thought of the Q112 running along Liberty; thus making it more of a "Liberty av" route.... There are some depictions on this map I didn't comment on, because I don't want to think that the MTA is that stupid to suggest something of the sort ((*cough*  Jamaica av * cough*))

Then again, that's using some semblance of logic - which accounts for much of nothing when the source is considered....

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

I just found the map in question, and I noticed some routes aren't in there, I hope it's because they're safe(because I don't see the Q41 on there).

Also, is it me or did they send the Q8 to Brownsville???? It looks like they sent it to what appears to be Brookdale Hospital. If that appears to be the case, I see some big changes for the B15 coming....

I hate to sound like the narrator of a horror movie, but nothing is safe/forgotten..... There's also no sign of the Q1, 36, or Q50 either.... Anything we don't see, is dust - that is, unless the "right" people (those with enough clout) do whatever is that they do behind the scenes to get the MTA to cower & rescind a particular proposal that doesn't loom beneficial to/for the patrons they represent....

Anyway, yeah, I pointed that out last night/early this morning.... That's a diverted & extended Q8 along New Lots & Hegeman to the Hegeman entrance of Brookdale (I guess they need space for those Q52's they want to send to Gateway... LOL!).... Taxi's currently idle on that side of the hospital.... While it would make for a decent layover spot for a bus (hell, some B8 drivers currently layover along 98th in that immediate vicinity, just before E. 98th spills into Hegeman), the turnover scenario would straight up suck.... If that's a presage of what's to happen here in Brooklyn (as in, anything involving the B15 and/or severing the connection to JFK), whoo hoo boy!! I can tell you right now that much of nobody around here is all that interested in getting to Jamaica on one bus, or anywhere along the Q8 east of City Line......

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

Nah, 130th Street is definitely more heavier than Lefferts by a lot. The 130th Street branch sees a lot more riders than Lefferts south of Rockaway all the way to Bergen Road in the Airport.

Separate from the whole Federal Circle crap (which I don't see happening), you can get away with eradicating either branch of the Q10 & the Q10 would still do good for itself - that is, as long as you have the Q37 covering enough of Lefferts south of Rockaway (if you get rid of the Q10 Lefferts Branch), or you have the Q9 covering enough of 130th south of Rockaway (if you get rid of the Q10 130th st branch, as the MTA's proposing in this map).... It's not like, say, the B17, where the Seaview Branch is leaps & bounds more patronized than that of the Paerdegat/E. 80th branch....

Edited December 18, 2019 by B35 via Church