SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

What about 9th Avenue?

That's the same problem on steroids, as you're providing even less coverage with a setup that already sucks.

[R10 2952]

Exactly; maybe the  along 4th Ave would've made sense if it had gone to 95th to allow for an  cutback to Whitehall, but that ship sailed in the late '80s as far as I'm concerned- the ridership patterns have long changed since then.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

8 hours ago, Stormxx said:

If the  was to run to Bay Ridge via the  and if the  was cut back to Whitehall, the  wouldn't have direct access to Coney, which would be a problem. Anyways, to the Astoria Lines.  The 90 siemens that went to Jamaica for the Alstoms, are those only temporary? Because the  wouldn't have much spares to run on the lines. With the R46's crapping out, who knows? There may be a shortage of cars. If you'd want the  and  both to end at 96th st, that'd be a great idea, because of course everyone would want the  to become full time. One problem with that. COVID-19. There are not as many operators as before, so we'd have to wait until new operators to come in for that plan to even be thought of.

The yard issue is overrated. For decades, the  /  ran full time between Bay Ridge and Astoria. It only became an issue when the subway cars, along with the system as a whole, fell into a state of disrepair in the 1970s and 80s. The cars were in terrible shape, so having a yard at one end of every full time line was helpful. Today that’s not the case. But if deadheading  trains to CI is an issue, the MTA can make 38th St Yard into a storage yard for subway cars, which they planned to as part of the long-term plans for the SAS. This is assuming the  runs full time between Astoria and Bay Ridge (the pre-1987  route). But if the  is truncated at Whitehall and the  replaces it in Brooklyn, with the  as a weekday supplement,  trains would begin deadheading to CI as towards the end of service. 

9 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Truncating the  at Whitehall is something I think all of us, if not most of us, would really like as this would allow for more reliability. If the  were to be extended to South Brooklyn, I'd have it run along West End to Bay Parkway the old  made because West End needs the extra service. This would also work better as this doesn't just run only in downtown, but towards midtown and to Astoria, people would maybe want to use this as a 1 seat ride if they wanted to. Although that would be an issue because the  wouldn't help the  east of Broadway Junction unless it's only extended to Jamaica Center for rush hour service and then truncates at Broadway Junction other times. I think the  would be the sole train during weekdays, but weekends the  runs to Astoria, but I highly doubt that would work well since the  would be needing help and Astoria service would be reduced in a way. I would love to see how this plays out regardless though.

 

9 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Instead of reinventing the wheel why not keep it simple?  from Continental to Whitehall.  and  to Astoria while sharing a fleet. QBL local has yard access and the Astoria lines have yard access at Coney Island. The  would be the old  . Problem solved. Why screw up the   for any reason? My take. YMMV. Carry on. 

That’s what I’m suggesting by truncating the  at Whitehall. That is a modern day  service, but seven days a week, unlike the . My preference is to have the  expand to full time service and run between Astoria and Bay Ridge, while sending the  to 2nd Ave.

The only reason I suggested extending the  - which I don’t really think would screw it up if it turns at Broadway Junction - is if the MTA makes a big deal about a full time Astoria-Bay Ridge  not having a yard at either end (they might object to it). Maybe that’s not such a big deal if the  stays part time. In this case, I’d leave the current  /  setup in Astoria. I wouldn’t run the  to Jamaica Center in this scenario as it would be too long of a route. Just have the  run peak express and the  local between Broadway Junction and Marcy.

Or we can have the  run solo both in Astoria and in Brooklyn as the 4th Avenue local service, then to CI via the West End Line, while the  runs express up to 36th then local to Bay Ridge with newly installed switches north of 36th, similar to the Vanshnookenraggen plan. Then the yard thing would be a non-issue completely.

Edited February 3, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Storm]

9 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Instead of reinventing the wheel why not keep it simple?  from Continental to Whitehall.  and  to Astoria while sharing a fleet. QBL local has yard access and the Astoria lines have yard access at Coney Island. The  would be the old  . Problem solved. Why screw up the   for any reason? My take. YMMV. Carry on. 

Well, what about forest hills? You can't just leave the  as the sole local for QBL- that wouldn't end well.

[ferrocarrilusa]

While we happen to be on the subject of the , I have a question about its history.

 

First, a refresher: Back when the designation took its original form (Broadway-West End, basically the latest in a line of reincarnations from BMT 3 - T - yellow B) during the final phase of Manhattan Bridge reconstruction, it first ran only in Brooklyn on weekends and late nights.  Of course, the  was temporarily modified for a brief period before it was even two months old due to 9/11, but otherwise the "off-hour shuttle" stayed the case until September 2002.  Then, due to the 75% shutdown of Stillwell Avenue station that left the West End platform as the only functioning one, the  went to Astoria 24/7 so that Stillwell passengers could always have a one-seat ride to Manhattan.  Meanwhile, it was the that became the "off-hour shuttle" between Pacific and 86th.  This remained in effect until 2004 when the bridge was done and the  assumed its current form.

Here's what I don't get: During this time (9/2002-2/2004), why did the weekend  run via Montague and make every single local stop from Ditmars to Stillwell?  I can understand running local in Manhattan, but why not the 4th Ave express and/or the bridge?  I doubt it was to provide extra service to lower Manhattan, as ever since 2004 it has only been the  via Montague on weekends.  Did it have something to do with relaying  trains north of Pacific?  Even then I still think the switch configuration would have allowed the to reach the bridge, which was only traversed by  trains at that point.  

During the summer of 2003, if you wanted to get to Coney Island on the weekend it was a total drag since the only subway line that went there was a slowpoke that took the long way around!

[Trainmaster5]

9 hours ago, Stormxx said:

Well, what about forest hills? You can't just leave the  as the sole local for QBL- that wouldn't end well.

Reading is fundamental.  to Whitehall is what I proposed.

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, Stormxx said:

19 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Instead of reinventing the wheel why not keep it simple?  from Continental to Whitehall.  and  to Astoria while sharing a fleet. QBL local has yard access and the Astoria lines have yard access at Coney Island. The  would be the old  . Problem solved. Why screw up the   for any reason? My take. YMMV. Carry on. 

Well, what about forest hills? You can't just leave the  as the sole local for QBL- that wouldn't end well.

"Continental" = 71st/Continental = Forest Hills.

He's saying the would take the place of the in Queens..... In other words, the & the would be the QBL locals.

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Reading is fundamental.  to Whitehall is what I proposed.

It appears he didn't get what you meant by Continental.... 

[Trainmaster5]

23 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

"Continental" = 71st/Continental = Forest Hills.

He's saying the would take the place of the in Queens..... In other words, the & the would be the QBL locals.

It appears he didn't get what you meant by Continental.... 

And here I thought that rail fans knew everything about the system 😃. My mistake. I guess the  reference wasn’t clear enough. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Trainmaster5

[Mtatransit]

 

On 2/2/2021 at 3:57 PM, Lawrence St said:

What about 9th Avenue?

Throughout its history the old  did actually alternate terminating between 9th Ave and Bay Parkway. I guess they eventually stuck with Bay Parkway to make the line slightly useful to West End riders

21 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Exactly; maybe the  along 4th Ave would've made sense if it had gone to 95th to allow for an  cutback to Whitehall, but that ship sailed in the late '80s as far as I'm concerned- the ridership patterns have long changed since then.

In my opinion, the ship sailed a long time ago. Way before the 1980s. 

When Midtown surpass Downtown in the number of jobs. Stations along Broad Street Line fell into decline. To understand how busy the old Nassau St line was, just look at the configuration of Canal, Bowery (both sides) and Chamber St. It was designed for much more trains than today.

Before anyone brings this up. Bring back the NASSAU ST LOOP is bad idea!

19 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But if the  is truncated at Whitehall and the  replaces it in Brooklyn, with the  as a weekday supplement,  trains would begin deadheading to CI as towards the end of service. 

The  don't even need to deadhead the crews. All they have to do (assuming they share the fleet at Astoria-Ditmars) is at the end of the shift make the  operator do a trip on the  to Coney Island. Same in the morning, they could sign as an  and switch to the  at Ditmars for the rest of the day. This way the deadhead will carry passengers. Its very similar to the few 's leaving CI yard.

19 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That’s what I’m suggesting by truncating the  at Whitehall. That is a modern day  service, but seven days a week, unlike the . My preference is to have the  expand to full time service and run between Astoria and Bay Ridge, while sending the  to 2nd Ave.

That would leave Astoria Line riders with a huge service cut, which prior to COVID needed every train it got. It is why between 2010-2017  had both the  AND  go there. 

I don't think the ridership along SAS have surpass the ridership on the  and  right now thru the 60th St Tube

19 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The only reason I suggested extending the  - which I don’t really think would screw it up if it turns at Broadway Junction - is if the MTA makes a big deal about a full time Astoria-Bay Ridge  not having a yard at either end (they might object to it). Maybe that’s not such a big deal if the  stays part time. In this case, I’d leave the current  /  setup in Astoria. I wouldn’t run the  to Jamaica Center in this scenario as it would be too long of a route. Just have the  run peak express and the  local between Broadway Junction and Marcy.

I can not agree with extending any Nassau Street Line into Brooklyn. The issue with the old  was that people simply didn't travel to the stations along Nassau Street. By extending the  to Brooklyn, it will run into the same problem as the old  ,in that the train will pretty much be empty by Atlantic Avenue. The current  despite its flaws does serve the stations people want to travel to (slowly and when it shows up)

Edited February 3, 2021 by Mtatransit

[Lawrence St]

8 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

 

Throughout its history the old  did actually alternate terminating between 9th Ave and Bay Parkway. I guess they eventually stuck with Bay Parkway to make the line slightly useful to West End riders

In my opinion, the ship sailed a long time ago. Way before the 1980s. 

When Midtown surpass Downtown in the number of jobs. Stations along Broad Street Line fell into decline. To understand how busy the old Nassau St line was, just look at the configuration of Canal, Bowery (both sides) and Chamber St. It was designed for much more trains than today.

Before anyone brings this up. Bring back the NASSAU ST LOOP is bad idea!

The  don't even need to deadhead the crews. All they have to do (assuming they share the fleet at Astoria-Ditmars) is at the end of the shift make the  operator do a trip on the  to Coney Island. Same in the morning, they could sign as an  and switch to the  at Ditmars for the rest of the day. This way the deadhead will carry passengers. Its very similar to the few 's leaving CI yard.

That would leave Astoria Line riders with a huge service cut, which prior to COVID needed every train it got. It is why between 2010-2017  had both the  AND  go there. 

I don't think the ridership along SAS have surpass the ridership on the  and  right now thru the 60th St Tube

I can not agree with extending any Nassau Street Line into Brooklyn. The issue with the old  was that people simply didn't travel to the stations along Nassau Street. By extending the  to Brooklyn, it will run into the same problem as the old  ,in that the train will pretty much be empty by Atlantic Avenue. The current  despite its flaws does serve the stations people want to travel to (slowly and when it shows up)

However, the purpose of sending a Nassau St service to 4th Av isn't for ridership, it's for connectivity, just like how the current was formed for connectivity. No one is riding the from Metropolitan Av to Forest Hills.

The current runs every, what, 10 minutes? Sending the to 9th Av (or Bay Ridge in my opinion) will increase service by 5 minutes.

The problem with 4th Av is that there is no suitable terminal to turn trains around without affecting service on other lines, not to mention that Bay Ridge is also a horrible terminal without those tail tracks.

Theoretically, what you could do, is have the be 4th Av Local, and have the terminate at 59th St and relay there. That way you don't delay service.

[Union Tpke]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:51 PM, trainfan22 said:

They removed the bench on the N/B platform at Union Square on the Broadway line. Personally, I pissed about this cause I use to love sitting at that bench to wait for R68/A N/Q/W trains.

 

 

I hate when they remove benches in the system, it's more comfortable to wait for the train sitting down, especially in the summer.

The funny thing is that they added a bench at the eastern end of Lex/53 a few years back.

[Union Tpke]

On 2/1/2021 at 9:11 PM, MHV9218 said:

Detail I noticed going through some old photos (@Union Tpke, you might be interested):

- lower-level W4 received new Vignelli black-on-white Unimark signs as earlier as spring 1968, possibly 1967 (in time for the Chrystie changes and Grand's opening);

- upper-level W4 received those signs by spring 1969 - rest of the 8th Ave probably around this time, but not all the way up;

- 125-145th never received these signs, only 'halfway' signs with white modules for bullets and white-on-black otherwise by the mid-1970s.

No new pillar signs on 8th Avenue until ~1981, when black-on-white enamel signs were installed (like 72nd and 135th had until recently). Exception for Chambers.

And it turns out that 71st-Continental actually received Unimark Vignelli signs in 1968-1969. I had no idea any Queens stations received these signs. Looks to be a sign for the EE and GG together. Credit to the late Joe Testagrose:

 

You really need to write up all your amazing findings.

[4 via Mosholu]

On 2/2/2021 at 11:53 PM, ferrocarrilusa said:

Here's what I don't get: During this time (9/2002-2/2004), why did the weekend  run via Montague and make every single local stop from Ditmars to Stillwell?  I can understand running local in Manhattan, but why not the 4th Ave express and/or the bridge?  I doubt it was to provide extra service to lower Manhattan, as ever since 2004 it has only been the  via Montague on weekends.  Did it have something to do with relaying  trains north of Pacific?  Even then I still think the switch configuration would have allowed the to reach the bridge, which was only traversed by  trains at that point.  

Yes, it definitely had something to do with turning the train over at Pacific. The train originally ran from Pacific to Stillwell over the weekend, only to terminate as the West End Shuttle at 36 Street at night; the Pacific Street turnaround on the train was as a result of the DeKalb Avenue and Manhattan Bridge renovations that happened almost simultaneously.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 2/2/2021 at 11:53 PM, ferrocarrilusa said:

While we happen to be on the subject of the , I have a question about its history.

 

First, a refresher: Back when the designation took its original form (Broadway-West End, basically the latest in a line of reincarnations from BMT 3 - T - yellow B) during the final phase of Manhattan Bridge reconstruction, it first ran only in Brooklyn on weekends and late nights.  Of course, the  was temporarily modified for a brief period before it was even two months old due to 9/11, but otherwise the "off-hour shuttle" stayed the case until September 2002.  Then, due to the 75% shutdown of Stillwell Avenue station that left the West End platform as the only functioning one, the  went to Astoria 24/7 so that Stillwell passengers could always have a one-seat ride to Manhattan.  Meanwhile, it was the that became the "off-hour shuttle" between Pacific and 86th.  This remained in effect until 2004 when the bridge was done and the  assumed its current form.

Here's what I don't get: During this time (9/2002-2/2004), why did the weekend  run via Montague and make every single local stop from Ditmars to Stillwell?  I can understand running local in Manhattan, but why not the 4th Ave express and/or the bridge?  I doubt it was to provide extra service to lower Manhattan, as ever since 2004 it has only been the  via Montague on weekends. Did it have something to do with relaying  trains north of Pacific? Even then I still think the switch configuration would have allowed the to reach the bridge, which was only traversed by  trains at that point.  

During the summer of 2003, if you wanted to get to Coney Island on the weekend it was a total drag since the only subway line that went there was a slowpoke that took the long way around!

Hi @ferrocarrilusa, welcome! You’ve definitely got the history of the Broadway-West End service down. I remember the 2002-04 service pretty well, having ridden it quite a lot back then. I do believe that relaying the  at Pacific played somewhat of a role in why the weekend/overnight  ran local in Brooklyn. The  had the highest ridership out of CI and its tracks were on a steel el structure that was in somewhat better condition than the other lines’ tracks, so it was kept as sole service into/out of CI (though from time to time, it stopped on the other platforms when work had to be done on the  platform). 

Also, because the  prior to 9/2002 (and post-2/2004), was a full time service, they needed to provide substitute service for when the  wasn’t running. So, the  substituted for the  overnights and weekends, as well as for the  on 4th Ave Local above 36th. 

18 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

 

Throughout its history the old  did actually alternate terminating between 9th Ave and Bay Parkway. I guess they eventually stuck with Bay Parkway to make the line slightly useful to West End riders

In my opinion, the ship sailed a long time ago. Way before the 1980s. 

When Midtown surpass Downtown in the number of jobs. Stations along Broad Street Line fell into decline. To understand how busy the old Nassau St line was, just look at the configuration of Canal, Bowery (both sides) and Chamber St. It was designed for much more trains than today.

Before anyone brings this up. Bring back the NASSAU ST LOOP is bad idea!

The  don't even need to deadhead the crews. All they have to do (assuming they share the fleet at Astoria-Ditmars) is at the end of the shift make the  operator do a trip on the  to Coney Island. Same in the morning, they could sign as an  and switch to the  at Ditmars for the rest of the day. This way the deadhead will carry passengers. Its very similar to the few 's leaving CI yard.

That would leave Astoria Line riders with a huge service cut, which prior to COVID needed every train it got. It is why between 2010-2017  had both the  AND  go there. 

I don't think the ridership along SAS have surpass the ridership on the  and  right now thru the 60th St Tube

I can not agree with extending any Nassau Street Line into Brooklyn. The issue with the old  was that people simply didn't travel to the stations along Nassau Street. By extending the  to Brooklyn, it will run into the same problem as the old  ,in that the train will pretty much be empty by Atlantic Avenue. The current  despite its flaws does serve the stations people want to travel to (slowly and when it shows up)

Fair enough. The Nassau St Line was far busier 100 years ago when Lower Manhattan was the main CBD in New York, and it was designed for the Lower Manhattan of 100 years ago. But it does have better connections than Lower Broadway, whose only convenient connections are the , PATH and the SI Ferry. And the current  sees a mass exodus of people at Atlantic. The “slowly and when it shows up” part is key. You’ve got to have a service that’s got a semblance of reliability and the current  doesn’t. The Bay Ridge/Dyker Heights express buses are well patronized despite the presence of the  for a reason. Maybe a change to the current service might change that (somewhat). 

But I get that the Nassau St Line isn’t a popular destination for very many people. That’s why my preference is to make the  full time between Astoria and Brooklyn, either all the way down 4th Ave to Bay Ridge, or to Stillwell via the West End (similar to the  in @vanshnookenraggen’s plan). I’d like very much to get rid of the  merge at 34th, because that is a major bottleneck on the Broadway Line. The  would run a similar frequency to the way the current  run to avoid having a major frequency loss in Astoria. It would be entirely possible to do that without the  merging in at 34th. They extended the  to Ditmars in 2010-16, because running more  trains and running them local via Lower Manhattan with some short turns at Canal and Whitehall (like the 12/1988-6/2001 ) would have been more expensive. Unfortunately, it was a terrible service plan due to merging delays at both Prince and 34th and many on here (myself included) couldn’t wait for the return of the  in 11/2016. 

Interestingly, prior to the Chrystie St Connection, base service on the West End Line was provided by a TT service via 4th Ave Local and Nassau. The supplemental T service via the express, the bridge and Broadway Express, only ran rush hours (opposite of the 1986-88 and 2001-04 service patterns). Goes to show how much has changed over the decades. 

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

However, the purpose of sending a Nassau St service to 4th Av isn't for ridership, it's for connectivity, just like how the current was formed for connectivity. No one is riding the from Metropolitan Av to Forest Hills.

The current runs every, what, 10 minutes? Sending the to 9th Av (or Bay Ridge in my opinion) will increase service by 5 minutes.

The problem with 4th Av is that there is no suitable terminal to turn trains around without affecting service on other lines, not to mention that Bay Ridge is also a horrible terminal without those tail tracks.

Theoretically, what you could do, is have the be 4th Av Local, and have the terminate at 59th St and relay there. That way you don't delay service.

I think the current  is every eight minutes. Or at least it’s supposed to be. I wouldn’t send any Nassau St train to 9th Avenue because it’s not a busy station (with Green-Wood Cemetery and a train yard as half of its catchment area, how can it be?) and busier local stations south of 36th, any Nassau service should either serve Bay Ridge or relay at 59th. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[NewFlyer 230]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

However, the purpose of sending a Nassau St service to 4th Av isn't for ridership, it's for connectivity, just like how the current was formed for connectivity. No one is riding the from Metropolitan Av to Forest Hills.

The current runs every, what, 10 minutes? Sending the to 9th Av (or Bay Ridge in my opinion) will increase service by 5 minutes.

The problem with 4th Av is that there is no suitable terminal to turn trains around without affecting service on other lines, not to mention that Bay Ridge is also a horrible terminal without those tail tracks.

Theoretically, what you could do, is have the be 4th Av Local, and have the terminate at 59th St and relay there. That way you don't delay service.

Yes the  was put along 6th Ave for connectivity but ridership did boom as a result especially to and from Brooklyn. Sending the  along 4th Ave would be a waste of resources because you simply don’t have as many people traveling along Nassau Street line to South Brooklyn. Riders could take the  and  from Canal Street or walk a short distance over to any  station in Downtown Manhattan if they need 4th Ave service. A bulk of the ridership is coming from points north of the Downtown area especially during the evenings and night time hours when the downtown area becomes more of a ghost town. 

The  is also long enough as it is so why would we add another 20 or so minutes to its runtime and run the risk of making it more unreliable for  the rest of its line. If we are trying to make the  more reliable then we need to reduce the amount of merges it has. It has to deal with the  at Queens Plaza especially if an is also there and goes first,  and  before Lexington Ave, and the  again at 42nd. It also doesn’t help that the  is completely local either. 

[Mtatransit]

12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

However, the purpose of sending a Nassau St service to 4th Av isn't for ridership, it's for connectivity, just like how the current was formed for connectivity. No one is riding the from Metropolitan Av to Forest Hills.

The current runs every, what, 10 minutes? Sending the to 9th Av (or Bay Ridge in my opinion) will increase service by 5 minutes.

The problem with 4th Av is that there is no suitable terminal to turn trains around without affecting service on other lines, not to mention that Bay Ridge is also a horrible terminal without those tail tracks.

Theoretically, what you could do, is have the be 4th Av Local, and have the terminate at 59th St and relay there. That way you don't delay service.

Tbh  was more of  just combining two trains together and saving money, at least that was the primary initial goal. I don't believe  realized the value of the routing until later.

I mean theoretically the  runs every 6-8 minutes during rush hours. Service runs every 12 minutes on weekends. 

If we implement the plan of rerouting the  to 71st and the  to Astoria, Brooklyn should have much more reliable service. The problem with the  I don't believe is frequency but reliability.

The only reason to send the  down there is to "help out" the  and provide supplementary service along 4th Avenue Local. If that is the case, 9th Avenue is more than enough for the terminal, but then that doesn't solve the issue of riders south of 36th St. I mean, it does provide 4th Av local riders with more service to Atlantic Avenue so I guess it is a benefit, but I think a more reliable 4th Ave Local is sufficient for the riders currently using it.

I don't believe you can relay trains at 59th Street. there are crossovers from local-express and vice versa but there is nothing to the other side. Which means that the train will have to single track all the way to 36 St to get to the other side. Or I wonder if they could relay the trains on the express tracks along Sea Beach. But at that point might as well just send it to 9th Av and call it a day

 

[Deucey]

Why isn't there a 10th or 11th Av line - now or historically?

[R10 2952]

Because that's where the New York Central Railroad tracks were; the West Side had freight service from the 1840s until the 1980s and potential interference with those operations, whether real or imagined, was used as a rationale to not have els or subways on the Far West Side.

[Spypenguin]

Just now, R10 2952 said:

Because that's where the New York Central Railroad tracks were; the West Side had freight service from the 1840s until the 1980s and potential interference with those operations, whether real or imagined, was used as a rationale to not have els or subways on the Far West Side.

Additionally, the IRT Ninth Av El provided service until June 1940

[QM1to6Ave]

5 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Because that's where the New York Central Railroad tracks were; the West Side had freight service from the 1840s until the 1980s and potential interference with those operations, whether real or imagined, was used as a rationale to not have els or subways on the Far West Side.

Are these the lines that Amtrak now uses up past the UWS (I hear the trains go by under Riverside Park when I am up there), or were these entirely separate  tracks? 
 

on that topic, why don’t we have freight service anymore? We talk so much about reducing congestion, and trucks are such a big contributor. 

[GojiMet86]

3 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

Are these the lines that Amtrak now uses up past the UWS (I hear the trains go by under Riverside Park when I am up there), or were these entirely separate  tracks? 
on that topic, why don’t we have freight service anymore? We talk so much about reducing congestion, and trucks are such a big contributor. 

Yes; Amtrak kept the part above 30th Street, while the southern section that went to Conrail and then CSX became the High Line.

This was the 60th Street Yard; the photo shows the part between 65th Street and 70th Street. This was later redeveloped by a certain former Commander-In-Chief into Riverside South.

[Calvin]

https://www.brooklynpaper.com/nostrand-avenue-station-entrance-reopens-after-more-than-30-years/?fbclid=IwAR07uWO-r_8euiUUjf_waLe9kRKOs1kFDYVP-DKSoOmdw7gzeNVoI-uj_QA#.YByXIyV-3CQ.facebook

The entrance at Bedford Av and Nostrand Av that was closed for a long time is reopened today. 

[MHV9218]

57 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

Yes; Amtrak kept the part above 30th Street, while the southern section that went to Conrail and then CSX became the High Line.

This was the 60th Street Yard; the photo shows the part between 65th Street and 70th Street. This was later redeveloped by a certain former Commander-In-Chief into Riverside South.

One of the most confusing piece of city geography in any movie is in The Pawnbroker, the 1964 Sidney Lumet movie, where the main character visits in an apartment in one of the new towers and looks out from a terrace over the rail yards. It took me a few minutes of trying to figure out where in Manhattan had a white-brick, midcentury apartment tower looking directly over train yards. Turns out it's probably one of the new towers that replaced San Juan Hill roughly around the urban renewal days, and it's looking out to the water over the trainyards. View that's totally gone in every way today.

[R10 2952]

2 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

On that topic, why don’t we have freight service anymore? We talk so much about reducing congestion, and trucks are such a big contributor. 

The whole downward trend of rail transport in this country after World War II; in the '40s and '50s, the politicians, the Teamsters, and industrialists were all pushing the mentality of "out with the old, in with the new".  The Interstate Highway System, Hoffa's beefs with railroad workers, and public complacency all combined to form a nasty trifecta.  Couple that with stuff like General Motors using front companies to buy out streetcar lines and convert them to buses, the railroads themselves sometimes being their own worst enemy with all the mismanagement, and you get the situation we have today.

Right now there are endless car-only towns all over the NY/NJ/PA/CT area and beyond that had regular passenger connections to NYC as recently as the late '60s.  Freight also used to be a different ballgame- used to either come in on barges from NJ, or across the bridge in Poughkeepsie.  Now there's only one float left, and the closest active bridge is all the way up in Selkirk.  Throw in the decline of the West Side, Evergreen, Bushwick, Lower Montauk, Bay Ridge, Putnam, Port Morris, North Shore Branches and what we're left with is a pretty mediocre state of affairs.

Personally, I think none of this would have come to pass if the railroads had simply been nationalized like in continental Europe (leaving the clusterfvck that was post-war U.K rail transport out for good reason)- or at the very least, conditions would never have gotten as bad as they did.  But as long as there is no coherent national policy, nothing will change; it's why we have mostly exhaust-belching diesels in this country instead of electric locomotives, several different, highly-siloed regional operators along the NEC instead of just having Amtrak run everything, and can't even get the ball rolling halfway decently on the whole concept of high-speed rail.

 

[Mtatransit]

4 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

Are these the lines that Amtrak now uses up past the UWS (I hear the trains go by under Riverside Park when I am up there), or were these entirely separate  tracks? 
 

on that topic, why don’t we have freight service anymore? We talk so much about reducing congestion, and trucks are such a big contributor. 

Yes those are used by Amtrak since 1991 when they rerouted trains from Upstate NY from Grand Central to NYP.

I believe the primary reason NYC doesn't have freight is the loss of industry in the 60s 70s and 80s as well as heavy passenger traffic. There simply isn't any slots for these freight trains. For example its hard to schedule an NYAR freight on the LIRR due to the density of the trains.

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

The whole downward trend of rail transport in this country after World War II; in the '40s and '50s, the politicians, the Teamsters, and industrialists were all pushing the mentality of "out with the old, in with the new".  The Interstate Highway System, Hoffa's beefs with railroad workers, and public complacency all combined to form a nasty trifecta.  Couple that with stuff like General Motors using front companies to buy out streetcar lines and convert them to buses, the railroads themselves sometimes being their own worst enemy with all the mismanagement, and you get the situation we have today.

Right now there are endless car-only towns all over the NY/NJ/PA/CT area and beyond that had regular passenger connections to NYC as recently as the late '60s.  Freight also used to be a different ballgame- used to either come in on barges from NJ, or across the bridge in Poughkeepsie.  Now there's only one float left, and the closest active bridge is all the way up in Selkirk.  Throw in the decline of the West Side, Evergreen, Bushwick, Lower Montauk, Bay Ridge, Putnam, Port Morris, North Shore Branches and what we're left with is a pretty mediocre state of affairs.

Personally, I think none of this would have come to pass if the railroads had simply been nationalized like in continental Europe (leaving the clusterfvck that was post-war U.K rail transport out for good reason)- or at the very least, conditions would never have gotten as bad as they did.  But as long as there is no coherent national policy, nothing will change; it's why we have mostly exhaust-belching diesels in this country instead of electric locomotives, several different, highly-siloed regional operators along the NEC instead of just having Amtrak run everything, and can't even get the ball rolling halfway decently on the whole concept of high-speed rail.

 

.Some railroads back then used five person crews due to the insistence of the unions. That alone caused the Railroads great financial distress. Add on to the fact that railroads were heavily regulated and were not allowed to abandon routes, raise tariffs, and merge cause them to not have the flexibility to turn a profit. Eventually the railroads did get nationalized with Conrail and Amtrak, which rationalized the network to something that could be profitable.

I mean back in the 60s you have DL&W ,Erie, NYC, Leigh Valley all competing on the New York- Buffalo route. Just imagine the amount of parallels track there is throughout the country. 

What you are getting at about Amtrak isn't really its fault. Without proper infrastructure, there couldn't be HSR. What UK did is the same as what Nassau did with the MTA, privatize it with public ownership. The theory is that it would save money, but without huge investments from the government to ensure the infrastructure is good, the trains can't run good. Its like if Nassau county buys NICE 30 year old buses, and it breaks down, you can't really blame it on NICE