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EE Broadway Local

By EE Broadway Local,
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Lance

Lance

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What ever happened to (F) express? Politics kill it? Or are they waiting for the culver rehab to finish...

 

Honestly, if they can (assuming they rebuild Kings Highway Interlocking and buy a few extra 211s), they should just run 2/3 of (F) trains express in the peak direction as far as KH, and extend the (G) with 10 cars there to add service at local stops. Then rebuild Bergen's lower level, and short turn whatever (F)s can't fit in CI at Avenue X (or even better, rebuild the crossovers at CI so all (F) service can go there). 

 

The only hitch I see is the crossings that will have to take place at Kings Highway...

I believe they're anticipating a Summer start for the express pilot. Right now, they're focused on the Jay St - Church Av segment since the lower portion is not an option due to the Culver rehab project.

 

Mathematically, sending the (2) to Dyre Avenue and (5) to Wakefield works out as well since the smoother merge increases throughput. Look what we have now: a signal improvement project just to keep the status quo.

While it makes sense from an operational standpoint, riders like the current setup. If Transit was to revert back to the service pattern from the '60s where the (2) ran to Dyre Av and the (5) to 241 Street, there would likely be an increase of transfers at E 180 Street. It's the same reason the (2) via White Plains express idea was killed in 2000.

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CenSin

CenSin

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I believe they're anticipating a Summer start for the express pilot. Right now, they're focused on the Jay St - Church Av segment since the lower portion is not an option due to the Culver rehab project.

Along with closure of northbound Avenue U, Avenue P, Avenue N, Bay Parkway, Avenue I platforms?

 

While it makes sense from an operational standpoint, riders like the current setup. If Transit was to revert back to the service pattern from the '60s where the (2) ran to Dyre Av and the (5) to 241 Street, there would likely be an increase of transfers at E 180 Street. It's the same reason the (2) via White Plains express idea was killed in 2000.

I’m curious what the ridership looks like. It would appear to me like rich neighborhoods have powerful politicians who enforce the status quo. Have a look at the maps:

 

http://www.lehman.edu/deannss/bronxdatactr/discover/bxtext90.htm

From the maps above, it would appear that the demographic difference is pronounced between the White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue lines. The Dyre Avenue Line serve a white majority.

 

These show that between the White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue lines, the latter serves a more affluent population:

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checkmatechamp13

checkmatechamp13

Posted
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Along with closure of northbound Avenue U, Avenue P, Avenue N, Bay Parkway, Avenue I platforms?

 

I’m curious what the ridership looks like. It would appear to me like rich neighborhoods have powerful politicians who enforce the status quo. Have a look at the maps:

 

http://www.lehman.edu/deannss/bronxdatactr/discover/bxtext90.htm

From the maps above, it would appear that the demographic difference is pronounced between the White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue lines. The Dyre Avenue Line serve a white majority.

 

These show that between the White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue lines, the latter serves a more affluent population:

 

 

Politics-wise, those areas are both served by Community Board 11/12 (12 covers the northern part of both branches, 11 covers areas like Allerton, Van Nest, Morris Park, etc)

 

Council district-wise, 12 stretches across the northern portion of both lines. South of the catchment area for the Gun Hill Road station on both lines, a few portions of the WPR Line are served by 15 (which mostly covers Tremont, Belmont, etc) but most are served by 13 (in fact, 13's boundary crosses over the WPR Line around Pelham Parkway)

 

For Congressional districts, Disctricts 14 & 16 stretch across both lines (16 continues up to Westchester).

 

In any case, WPR is getting express service anyway, whether it's from the (2) or (5). The question is, would the MTA run extra (2) service to 238th if Dyre were considered its home branch? 

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CenSin

CenSin

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In any case, WPR is getting express service anyway, whether it's from the (2) or (5).

I’m speaking of intraborough express service. I wonder if it’s a credible thought that racism/classism might be involved in making the (5) express in the Bronx. This was a complaint when the (JFK) skipped all the Fulton express stops and people were allegedly using it to avoid traveling with African-Americans on board the train.

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checkmatechamp13

checkmatechamp13

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I’m speaking of intraborough express service. I wonder if it’s a credible thought that racism/classism might be involved in making the (5) express in the Bronx. This was a complaint when the (JFK) skipped all the Fulton express stops and people were allegedly using it to avoid traveling with African-Americans on board the train.

 

Racism....the areas around the Morris Park & Pelham Parkway stations are fairly diverse, and the areas further up (Gun Hill Road, Baychester Avenue, and Dyre Avenue) are mostly black with some Hispanics, so I doubt that plays much of a role. (I'm sure the express service has been around for a while, likely even before the South Bronx started declining, so even the classism argument doesn't really work).

 

Plus, it's not like Mott Haven & East Harlem are particularly wealthy anyway.

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Around the Horn

Around the Horn

Posted
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I’m speaking of intraborough express service. I wonder if it’s a credible thought that racism/classism might be involved in making the (5) express in the Bronx. This was a complaint when the (JFK) skipped all the Fulton express stops and people were allegedly using it to avoid traveling with African-Americans on board the train.

 

From what I understand, the people along the  (5) are more likely to use Lexington and prefer a faster commute than  (2) riders.

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Lance

Lance

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due to upcoming kings highway interlocking work, as well as the Canarsie tube reconstruction, expect any actions to be taken regarding culver express to occur after Canarsie finishes up

Interesting. So, basically, they're punting Culver express service to around 2020? That does explain why the mention of summer 2017 disappeared from the online report.

 

That was last May. Things may change. Besides, since it's planned to run in two directions, why not just call it the (V) to avoid confusion with the (F) local?

I think it was pretty much agreed that the express variant would be called the <F>, similar to the <6> and <7> express services. 

 

Racism....the areas around the Morris Park & Pelham Parkway stations are fairly diverse, and the areas further up (Gun Hill Road, Baychester Avenue, and Dyre Avenue) are mostly black with some Hispanics, so I doubt that plays much of a role. (I'm sure the express service has been around for a while, likely even before the South Bronx started declining, so even the classism argument doesn't really work).

 

Plus, it's not like Mott Haven & East Harlem are particularly wealthy anyway.

According to my research, the White Plains Rd express service started in the '50s with the (5) when the line still ran up to 241 Street as the primary northern White Plains Rd line. 

 

From what I understand, the people along the  (5) are more likely to use Lexington and prefer a faster commute than  (2) riders.

Yep. That and the fact that the (5) picks up a lot of riders just on the Dyre Ave branch alone. If it was the peak direction local on White Plains Rd, the trains would be impossible to board.

 

Wouldn't there be less trains needed as the express run would save time?

There might be slow speed orders that negate any time savings.

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Caelestor

Caelestor

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What ever happened to (F) express? Politics kill it? Or are they waiting for the culver rehab to finish...

 

Honestly, if they can (assuming they rebuild Kings Highway Interlocking and buy a few extra 211s), they should just run 2/3 of (F) trains express in the peak direction as far as KH, and extend the (G) with 10 cars there to add service at local stops. Then rebuild Bergen's lower level, and short turn whatever (F)s can't fit in CI at Avenue X (or even better, rebuild the crossovers at CI so all (F) service can go there). 

 

The only hitch I see is the crossings that will have to take place at Kings Highway...

 

The <F> express is really a proposal to build more attractive housing in the southern Culver Line. The last two decades have shown that fast and convenient subway service leads to gentrification, and the developers and politicians near Coney Island want in on it. The <F> express service would work if the (V) was still around, but the (M) itself is bringing the gentrification to Bushwick instead, and so there's not enough 6 Ave capacity to accommodate the <F>.

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Trainmaster5 Motorman (Retired)

Trainmaster5

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From what I understand, the people along the  (5) are more likely to use Lexington and prefer a faster commute than  (2) riders.

Each time it was proposed the communities themselves told the (MTA) where to stick their throughput ideas. Most posters are probably not old enough to know that the (2) was the original Dyre service when the line was connected at East 180th St. During the am rush everyone changed at East 180th St for the Lex The last time this proposal came up it was determined that the segment south of East 180th St wanted Seventh Avenue service more than the Lexington service the (MTA) plan would provide. The Dyre clientele definately didn't want Seventh Avenue service up there. The WPR folks were more varied but one must realize demographics have changed over the years, in the Bronx and Westchester County. Those folks up at the northern end of WPR, especially Nereid and 241 St have always had East Side service during the rush hours whether by today's (5) from Nereid/241 St and the Third Avenue El from 241St back in the day. That's the reason those (5) rush hour trains still exist. Upper WPR and Westchester people want that service to continue in the rush hours. I'm surprised they haven't demanded the original service pattern where those  Lexington " Thru Express" trains ran totally express in the Bronx stopping at Gun Hill, East 180th, Third Ave-149th and Grand Concourse while the El trains stopped at Gun Hill lower and then express down Third Avenue to Manhattan. That's actually why I want the SAS to be extended to the Bronx, moreso than my beloved Brooklyn, where it would connect to an extended Concourse (D) and head east toward Co-op and Pelham. It just seems obvious, at least to me, that that should be the focus of any expansion plans going forward with the SAS . That and a Queens Blvd connection. I'm pessimistic that the politicians involved, and the (MTA) can ever finish any project, Archer Avenue leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to this day, much less what we railfans and commuters want and need. Sometimes I read the proposals some of you have come up with and I realize that the same or similar ideas came up two or three generations ago yet here we are still debating them. Read a book called " The Routes not Taken" if you haven't already and you'll see why I have little or no faith in any local politician or the (MTA) to actually look at the big picture of mass transportation in the metropolitan region. Excuse my rant. Carry on.

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