SUBWAY - Random Thoughts Topic

[MHV9218]

@Union Tpke @Lance You two might appreciate this – and you can help me guess what station this is, too. This is from 'ggelectrice60' on Flickr. R32 in the late-80s or early-1990s with the original logo, which is cool enough, but what's notable is that original 1960s Vignelli station signs are still hanging. I know Union Tpke had asked for an example of some of these in later years. You have to look closely, but you can see the original white signs almost completely covered with stickers. That tells you how long these signs held on for. This appears to be an express station based on the presence of the sign in the reflection, but weirdly there are designations for the and on one side and the  and on the other. I don't totally understand that. The reflection shows Downtown and Brooklyn, so presumably this is the southbound side of the station. Obviously can't be above 50th Street, lack of columns means it can't be 42nd or W4th, physically it can't be 34th, so I'm thinking this is 14th Street s/b, facing south. EDIT: Actually, maybe it could be Canal, with the  on this side representing the regular service, and the  on the 'express' side representing Brooklyn rush hour service.

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by MHV9218

[Union Tpke]

This does look like Canal. Thanks for sharing the image!

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?38892

[Calvin]

Today, a R160 on the  : 9568-9572 Alstom A-2 and Siemens 9013-9017 are coupled together in-service. 

[Deucey]

All these folks saying “ to Jamaica” when SAS finally goes to Hanover Square have me wondering:

How do you get them to Chrystie Street tracks without ruining  service since the closest switch is before West 4th?

[Maxwell179]

6 hours ago, Deucey said:

All these folks saying “ to Jamaica” when SAS finally goes to Hanover Square have me wondering:

How do you get them to Chrystie Street tracks without ruining  service since the closest switch is before West 4th?

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/NYC_full_trackmap_2Av-prop.pdf

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Personally, I’d rather use the Chrystie-Willy B tracks to connect to the 2nd Avenue Subway and leave the  on the Manhattan Bridge. Every proposal I see for sending the  and  to Williamsburg either calls for reducing the Nassau St Subway to a shuttle or abandoning it entirely. I’d much rather see Nassau incorporated into the SAS than be abandoned.

Edited July 5, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[LGA Link N Train]

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Personally, I’d rather use the Chrystie-Willy B tracks to connect to the 2nd Avenue Subway and leave the  on the Manhattan Bridge. Every proposal I see for sending the  and  to Williamsburg either calls for reducing the Nassau St Subway to a shuttle or abandoning it entirely. I’d much rather see Nassau incorporated into the SAS than be abandoned.

That's not entirely a bad thing if you think about it.

-The main problem with an SAS-Williamsburg connection is the lack of connections that it'll have with the rest of the Network. Hence why the  option is more favorable. 

- Now if Nassau Service were preserved under the  to Willamsbrug Option, that'll allow the  to dedicate all of its service into 4th Avenue Local (acting more or less as the primary line or supplementing the ) its a win win for everyone. 

- If Nassau Were abandoned, then here's what can happen:

• Broad Street and Fulton Center can become employee or storage Facilities 
• Bowery could become some sort of layup or small maintenance Facility for the  Williamsburg Service. 
• Canal Street can be extended into a full on Mezzanine (with the exception of the former Northbound "Local" Track so that trains can transverse through if needed). 
• Chambers Street could be converted into a Transit Museum given its grand size.  

[P3F]

1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

• Chambers Street could be converted into a Transit Museum given its grand size.  

Ironically, this could be done without closing the station. Just have the museum trains on the inner two tracks, accessible from the central platform. All service would be on the outer tracks. The main drawback is that the relay would become inaccessible (although the station would still be able to terminate trains on the western island platform, as was done after Hurricane Sandy).

The only case in which this would be of use, is if that recurring suggestion of connecting SAS to Fulton Street via the current Transit Museum happens. Otherwise, I don't think the Transit Museum needs more platform space (or to relocate). 

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by P3F

[Coney Island Av]

On 7/4/2020 at 10:56 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

That's not entirely a bad thing if you think about it.

-The main problem with an SAS-Williamsburg connection is the lack of connections that it'll have with the rest of the Network. Hence why the  option is more favorable. 

- Now if Nassau Service were preserved under the  to Willamsbrug Option, that'll allow the  to dedicate all of its service into 4th Avenue Local (acting more or less as the primary line or supplementing the ) its a win win for everyone. 

- If Nassau Were abandoned, then here's what can happen:

• Broad Street and Fulton Center can become employee or storage Facilities 
• Bowery could become some sort of layup or small maintenance Facility for the  Williamsburg Service. 
• Canal Street can be extended into a full on Mezzanine (with the exception of the former Northbound "Local" Track so that trains can transverse through if needed). 
• Chambers Street could be converted into a Transit Museum given its grand size.  

honestly abandoning nassau would just be more detrimental. while SAS may seem to deem it redundant, Lower Manhattan is still a heavily crowded area and abandoning a line is the last thing we need especially if ridership will continue to go up (albeit after the pandemic ends). besides we already have plenty of redundancy throughout the system (like the  and  on 42nd, the  and  in the Bronx, etc.) 

i am not sure if connecting it to SAS would seem wise considering that  train riders would miss out on a key transfer point (Fulton) since service would have to be cut back to chambers. while they do have the  in this scenario, connections to the  would be slightly inconvenient considering that it would require a two-legged transfer (assuming there is a connection with SAS at chambers). 

as for the SAS-Williamsburg connection, you are correct that it would lack transfer options, but it would still bring riders towards midtown nonetheless like the current  does. another problem with either connection is that there would not be any room for the  to fit. you cannot have the  or the  plus two SAS services crossing the bridge at the same time as it would mess up service along the broadway el. 

[Bay Ridge Express]

Off topic: absolutely zero people will take Cuomo's private air train. Zero because people will look at the travel time and say "wow that's way too long" from it having to go all the way to Willets (assuming you live west of there, which most people do) and just order a cab... nothing changes.

[LGA Link N Train]

1 minute ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Off topic: absolutely zero people will take Cuomo's private air train. Zero because people will look at the travel time and say "wow that's way too long" from it having to go all the way to Willets (assuming you live west of there, which most people do) and just order a cab... nothing changes.

You do realize that the AirTrain is nothing more than a people mover and not a viable asset to the overall transportation network in NYC. 

[Bay Ridge Express]

1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

You do realize that the AirTrain is nothing more than a people mover and not a viable asset to the overall transportation network in NYC. 

I do, and my point still stands.

[BreeddekalbL]

29 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Off topic: absolutely zero people will take Cuomo's private air train. Zero because people will look at the travel time and say "wow that's way too long" from it having to go all the way to Willets (assuming you live west of there, which most people do) and just order a cab... nothing changes.

The thing is stupid as hell

[B35 via Church]

38 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Off topic: absolutely zero people will take Cuomo's private air train....

Not if he calls for the (spiteful) discontinuation of the Q70....

36 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

You do realize that the AirTrain is nothing more than a people mover and not a viable asset to the overall transportation network in NYC. 

You do realize you're actually bolstering his sentiment by saying this....

8 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

The thing is stupid as hell

All things currently considered, yeah..... Way I see it though, he's going to try to force this thing to be more useful, by exacerbating current commuting methods to get to/from LGA.....

[mrsman]

7 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

honestly abandoning nassau would just be more detrimental. while SAS may seem to deem it redundant, Lower Manhattan is still a heavily crowded area and abandoning a line is the last thing we need especially if ridership will continue to go up (albeit after the pandemic ends). besides we already have plenty of redundancy throughout the system (like the  and  on 42nd, the  and  in the Bronx, etc.) 

i am not sure if connecting it to SAS would seem wise considering that  train riders would miss out on a key transfer point (Fulton) since service would have to be cut back to chambers. while they do have the  in this scenario, connections to the  would be slightly inconvenient considering that it would require a two-legged transfer (assuming there is a connection with SAS at chambers). 

as for the SAS-Williamsburg connection, you are correct that it would lack transfer options, but it would still bring riders towards midtown nonetheless like the current  does. another problem with either connection is that there would not be any room for the  to fit. you cannot have the  or the  plus two SAS services crossing the bridge at the same time as it would mess up service along the broadway el. 

There's a lot one could do with the Nassau line, even if all of the Williamsburg bridge trains go to 6th Avenue  or even if we terminate one or both services at Chambers.  Let's look at the possibilities.

Assume all Williamsburg bridge trains go uptown and the SAS is not routed at all on Nassau.  As others have said, the best case scenario here would be to have a new train from Essex to Broad continuing down the Montague tunnel as the 4th Ave local.  Willamburg bridge riders will have direct access to the (B)(D) and can transfer to the new  for all downtown service at Essex, have access to  and  and  at Broadway-Laffayette and at W4th.  These trains provide good service to all parts of Midtown.  A new transfer to the  at Prince is also possible as it is close to Broadway-Lafayette.  The only trunk lines that would be tricky to transfer to would be 1,2,3 and the SAS (which presumably would run to Grand Street, but there is no current stop on the current  line routing to there).  But as it is, I doubt that any current  train rider goes to Fulton if they are headed for the midtown (A)(C)(E), it would seem to make more sense to just transfer to  and then make the ACE transfer at W4th.  Under this scnerio, Williamsburg Bridge people can do that same transfer and make only the transfer at W4th - one transfer instead of two.   And if anyh Williamsburg Bridge customer is headed towared a 7th Ave IRT destination in Manhattan, they would likely just walk from a nearby 6th Ave or 8th Ave station.

Assuming we have one Will Bridge line going to 6th Ave, and one terminating at Chambers - kind of like today's service, except we terminate  at Chambers instead of Broad.   riders can then transfer at Chambers to  and to go further Downtown or to whatever takes over the Nassau line (presumably the SAS) at Chambers.   riders will still have connections to Broadway trains at Canal , but will miss the direct connections to (2)(3)(A)(C).  Presumably service on the SAS and the 6th Ave express can be reached with a new transfer from Bowery to the Grand street station.  As I said in the previous paragraph, I can't imagine many midtown bound passengers to the 23AC would go all the way down to Fulton to avoid transferring more directly to those lines via the  , so most of those destinations can be reached either by walking from an  station or taking the  and transferring at W4th.

I can't imagine realistically that a new service pattern would cut off both Midtown and Downtown from all Williamsburg Bridge riders, basically cutting off the current  routing and forcing all Will bridge trains to stop at Chambers.  If that were done, yes, we would push all of those people to make transfers.  They would still have transfer access at Essex to the 6th Ave local, a new transfer at Bowery could provide transfers to the 6th Ave express and the SAS, transfers at Canal to the Broadway trains and .  Agreed that this would make the connections to 23AC even more difficult requiring a hard transfer at Essex and then another transfer at W4th. 

But even that would be better than simply rerouting all Williamsburg Bridge trains to SAS, as the Williamsburg Bridge passengers would only have access to SAS and transfer access to 6th Avenue trains.  No direct access to Broadway or Lexington trains.  A hard transfer at 2Av/houston or Essex to 6th Avene trains and then a second transfer at W4th for 8th Ave trains.  Not a good idea.

Bottom line - if one or both Williamsburg Bridge line maintains direct Midtown access to 6th Ave, access to basically all of Manhattan can be maintained with one additional transfer and some extra walking.  Downtown along the Nassau line could also be reached with one transfer and direct access to Fulton would not be necessary.

 

 

 

 

[Calvin]

- I've noticed from the first week of July and so-on,  trains are running in slow speeds between Av. U and Av.P. 

- Also, I wonder if there's a change in performance (or mileage) to the R46s as previously, Jamaica Yard routes and  are 1 hr. 30 - 1 hr. 50 mins vs Coney Island  routes that is 1 hr. 00 mins - 1 hr 20 mins, some on the  that's 40 mins the entire route. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Calvin

[Around the Horn]

I've got a question for the rollsign experts:

Are the route rolls for the side signs on the R42s and the R68/As the same size and if so are they potentially interchangeable? Obviously the destination rolls aren't and that's something you can kind of see with the naked eye, but the route rolls look like they're very close to each other in size if not exactly the same.

[Deucey]

On 7/6/2020 at 12:16 AM, Bay Ridge Express said:

Off topic: absolutely zero people will take Cuomo's private air train. Zero because people will look at the travel time and say "wow that's way too long" from it having to go all the way to Willets (assuming you live west of there, which most people do) and just order a cab... nothing changes.

All the folks who take the M60 and Q70 might beg to differ.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

All the folks who take the M60 and Q70 might beg to differ.

In what way?

Considering the AirTrain's asinine off-grounds terminus (Willets Point, which is a bunch of f***ing nothing), I can't see many going for it. It falls short of everything, depriving it of anything resembling decent transfer opportunities. Even the redevelopment plans will do little to soften the blow.

[Deucey]

6 hours ago, Lex said:

In what way?

Considering the AirTrain's asinine off-grounds terminus (Willets Point, which is a bunch of f***ing nothing), I can't see many going for it. It falls short of everything, depriving it of anything resembling decent transfer opportunities. Even the redevelopment plans will do little to soften the blow.

The 45+ minute traffic jams getting in/out of LGA alone. Add to it the SRO/crushload conditions and letting buses “pass”.

The route may be circuitous, but it’ll be used. 

[Union Tpke]

9 hours ago, Deucey said:

All the folks who take the M60 and Q70 might beg to differ.

Just add dedicated bus lanes for them.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:50 PM, Coney Island Av said:

honestly abandoning nassau would just be more detrimental. while SAS may seem to deem it redundant, Lower Manhattan is still a heavily crowded area and abandoning a line is the last thing we need especially if ridership will continue to go up (albeit after the pandemic ends). besides we already have plenty of redundancy throughout the system (like the  and  on 42nd, the  and  in the Bronx, etc.) 

i am not sure if connecting it to SAS would seem wise considering that  train riders would miss out on a key transfer point (Fulton) since service would have to be cut back to chambers. while they do have the  in this scenario, connections to the  would be slightly inconvenient considering that it would require a two-legged transfer (assuming there is a connection with SAS at chambers). 

as for the SAS-Williamsburg connection, you are correct that it would lack transfer options, but it would still bring riders towards midtown nonetheless like the current  does. another problem with either connection is that there would not be any room for the  to fit. you cannot have the  or the  plus two SAS services crossing the bridge at the same time as it would mess up service along the broadway el. 

Agreed; you can’t have the  and two SAS services or the  on the Willy B at the same time. A while ago, I suggested an idea in the Proposals thread that would preserve the  transfer to the  at Fulton. I quoted it further down in this post.

On 7/6/2020 at 7:43 AM, mrsman said:

I can't imagine realistically that a new service pattern would cut off both Midtown and Downtown from all Williamsburg Bridge riders, basically cutting off the current  routing and forcing all Will bridge trains to stop at Chambers.  If that were done, yes, we would push all of those people to make transfers.  They would still have transfer access at Essex to the 6th Ave local, a new transfer at Bowery could provide transfers to the 6th Ave express and the SAS, transfers at Canal to the Broadway trains and .  Agreed that this would make the connections to 23AC even more difficult requiring a hard transfer at Essex and then another transfer at W4th. 

But even that would be better than simply rerouting all Williamsburg Bridge trains to SAS, as the Williamsburg Bridge passengers would only have access to SAS and transfer access to 6th Avenue trains.  No direct access to Broadway or Lexington trains.  A hard transfer at 2Av/houston or Essex to 6th Avene trains and then a second transfer at W4th for 8th Ave trains.  Not a good idea.

Bottom line - if one or both Williamsburg Bridge line maintains direct Midtown access to 6th Ave, access to basically all of Manhattan can be maintained with one additional transfer and some extra walking.  Downtown along the Nassau line could also be reached with one transfer and direct access to Fulton would not be necessary.

But you don’t have to reroute all Williamsburg Bridge trains to 2nd Avenue. I suggested this idea as a long-term possibility: 

On 5/22/2020 at 7:54 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The  and any other SAS services really need to be their own self-contained trunk line if we don’t want to force them to run at half capacity or force other lines like QB local or 8th Ave to run with fewer tph than they could or should...

 

I can’t see them leaving the existing SAS as stub. Plus one reason for going with 2nd over 3rd was to fill the gap east of the , especially below 23rd St, where Manhattan begins its “bulge.” Though an alignment on 3rd does make for much easier transfers with the cross-river tunnel lines in Midtown. And just going with the MTA’s current four-phase plan is bad because it leaves Phases 3 and 4 with far less service than there should be, unless a Queens-SAS service is simultaneously implemented when the  debuts. But even if there is a Queens-SAS service in addition to the , it’ll still be limited in frequency by being on the same two tracks with the  and any other trains it shares tracks with in Queens (or Brooklyn for that matter). 

Truth be told, I do like the “teal ” idea. I’ve long wanted to see the Nassau St Line folded into the 2nd Avenue Line. That’s really the only way to make it a more popular line. But to do that would require some sort of complex wye junction between Essex and Bowery to allow SAS  trains from the north to go onto the Willy B and to allow the  and  to go south. But I suspect it wouldn’t be very feasible. And if we do this, then we might not need a four-track line. You’d have  and  trains between 63rd and Bowery/Kenmare and  and teal  trains south of Bowery, with the  and  turning at Chambers. The  could be the service that runs between Queens and the SAS in Midtown.

So it would be only the  that turns uptown from Essex, as the current  does. The J and Z would continue downtown to Nassau St ad now, joined by the , which would run strictly north-south from East Harlem to Broad St (possibly beyond, but I haven’t thought that far out yet, lol). The  and  would be the only services on 2nd Avenue proper from Houston to 63rd (possibly shifting onto 3rd Avenue in the East 40s and 50s to facilitate transfers to the Queens-bound tunnel services there). You wouldn’t be able to turn J, T and Z services at Broad at the same time, so might I suggest turning the Z at Chambers when it’s in operation. This preserves the connection with the A, C, 2, 3, 4 and 5 at Fulton. I’m also going to suggest scrapping skip-stop service and running the J peak express between Broadway Junction and Marcy on weekdays, while running the Z local alongside the M.

Though I do realize that the wye that would be needed to allow for this would be quite complex and very expensive to build. And J, M, T and Z trains would either be limited to 9-car trains or the existing stations on the  Jamaica and Myrtle els and the Nassau subway stations would need their platforms to be lengthened to allow 10-car trains.

Of course, this assumes that we ever do get to SAS phases 3 and 4. We’ll be lucky if we get Phase 2 built.

Edited July 7, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue
Clarification

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, Deucey said:

All the folks who take the M60 and Q70 might beg to differ.

Not a chance that most folks taking buses to get to/from LGA will switch to this rendition of an AIRTrain.... Too significant a backtrack, among other things.

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

The 45+ minute traffic jams getting in/out of LGA alone. Add to it the SRO/crushload conditions and letting buses “pass”.

The route may be circuitous, but it’ll be used. 

- Technically? Sure..... As 1 > 0....

- Enough to justify its existence? Not even remotely.

58 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Just add dedicated bus lanes for them.

Far cheaper than erecting a people mover that'd dump people off between a baseball stadium & a string of tennis courts....

9 hours ago, Lex said:

Considering the AirTrain's asinine off-grounds terminus (Willets Point, which is a bunch of f***ing nothing), I can't see many going for it. It falls short of everything, depriving it of anything resembling decent transfer opportunities. Even the redevelopment plans will do little to soften the blow.

At least you get to walk on the Passerelle ped. bridge to either catch a Met game or a(nother) Federer/Nadal matchup

R.I.P., your eardrums.

[LGA Link N Train]

3 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Just add dedicated bus lanes for them.

While that is a common sense option, unfortunately the Port Authority didn’t see it that way. I forgot which study I looked at since it was months ago, but there was a feasibility study regarding the boondoggle train and how it holds up against other options to get to LGA. You already know this, It was skewed to make the AirTrain the most favorable option (which is BS).

[NewFlyer 230]

Does anyone else think that Court Square station needs to be connected via the north end of the (7) platform and the middle of the (E) and (M) platform. I always found it quite ridiculous how you need to walk down that long mezzanine, pass the (G) train’s mezzanine just to connect to the Flushing and or Queens Blvd lines. 

Having a (7) train entrance at 44th Dr and a connection to the (E) and (M) would save so much time and I think it would be worth constructing. It would definitely be much easier to build than a connection between the Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza stations.