Bronx Redesign Draft Released

[paulrivera]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Actually it does hold water because a lot of people over the border in Mount Vernon and come down to get the BxM11. You also have people east of the subway that use the express bus up there.  Additionally, the  are HORRIBLE in the Bronx. Any little thing and the  stops running express and immediately switches to local, and the  is painfully slow as well.  

Those ‘s to/from Nereid are the first trains to be cancelled whenever there’s an incident on the IRT during rush hour.

Hell, even on a good day half the Nereid  trains terminate at Gun Hill Road anyways.

Back to the express buses, I really hope the BxM4/BxM5 redesigns work out (sucks for the Concourse tho, the  and  go thru their own problems also and the BxM4 really helped out during the rush.)

When will these proposals be finalized and brought up for formal approval?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

27 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

Those ‘s to/from Nereid are the first trains to be cancelled whenever there’s an incident on the IRT during rush hour.

Hell, even on a good day half the Nereid  trains terminate at Gun Hill Road anyways.

Back to the express buses, I really hope the BxM4/BxM5 redesigns work out (sucks for the Concourse tho, the  and  go thru their own problems also and the BxM4 really helped out during the rush.)

When will these proposals be finalized and brought up for formal approval?

September. A lot of BxM4 people are not happy with this because of the ADA accessibility issue.  We are definitely going to try to fight this change.  The BxM11 change isn't that popular either.  What I'm waiting on is to speak with my contact before starting any petitions. There are a number of topics I told them I wanted to discuss and I want to see how that goes first.

[Lex]

33 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Actually it does hold water because a lot of people over the border in Mount Vernon and come down to get the BxM11. You also have people east of the subway that use the express bus up there.  Additionally, the  are HORRIBLE in the Bronx. Any little thing and the  stops running express and immediately switches to local, and the  is painfully slow as well.  

Even taking the people from Mount Vernon into consideration, the argument doesn't hold up, as people will be congregating right by a station (again, aside from a couple of drop-offs that are a short walk away, every BxM11 stop from Pelham Parkway to the Wakefield terminus is right by a station). Again, the BxM11 generally runs far less frequently than the  (which runs no less frequently than every 12 minutes during most hours, whereas the BxM11 tends to run every 30-60 minutes if it's not peak service), thus making it an awful alternative by virtue of near-nonexistence, which is only exacerbated by vehicular traffic along the different stretches of its route.

Bronx  service only runs express in the peak direction, save for a handful of transitional trains between the AM rush and midday periods, so that point is also moot if the issue is off-peak service to Wakefield (and the BxM11's significance in this regard means increasingly less as you continue further north). Moreover, as good as that express run can be, it's borderline overrated, especially since the design at the northern end of the express run involves branching (Dyre Avenue) trains having to cross over one of the local tracks to go between the express track and the branch line (which actually exacerbates issues with local trains).

My point is that you'll need better arguments than distance from the subway when the distance is rather insignificant. Additionally, the solution to abysmal subway service is to improve it. not try to run an expensive bus that makes the same stops, particularly when the subway service (for all its glaring flaws) is better than in more far-flung areas (say, the Rockaways). None of this necessarily means that I agree with the proposals, but when arguing about the impact distance from the subway has, it helps if there's some significant difference between where the bus stops and subway stations are located, as well as the location and steepness of slopes.

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

Perhaps that was what I meant to say, that the 11 could use more ridership from East 177.

Alright, gotcha.

5 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

I did say there was going to be a part two with this one, so here it is. Anything that I put in Blue Gray are my own suggestions.

What doesn't work in the Bronx Redesign Plan (and what I question their necessity of)

• The two split 15 buses: Having the 55 come back as a LIMITED stopping at all the Third Avenue stops would work best over calling the other 15 the 125.
• The 16's Mundy Lane portion: That one is more or less unnecessary for the 16 to go via Pitman, Mundy Lane and 238th (i.e. Nereid). I think it is quite dangerous for it to run through a narrow lane. Having it run straight up Baychester into 238th is better.
• 30 service to Norwood being cut: It may be true that the Bainbridge section is rather notorious for duplication, as there is the 16 and 38 also terminating there. Because it mainly signifies Boston Road service, it's necessary for it to continue connecting it over there. Having the route run completely via Boston Road to Pelham Parkway may help make the 60/61/62 have pickup only to White Plains and New Rochelle as well as drop off only from there via Boston. But having it become straightened out would provide more problems than it's worth.
• 46 to Hunts Point and Prospect: The 46 should have been absorbed with another Coliseum (i.e. West Farms) Line running near there. Perhaps the 27 would have been better for this.
• 18 express service via Hudson Yards: This would be a bummer since it wouldn't really stop at Hudson Yards itself, while cutting out the stop for the World Financial Center.

- I don't agree with any splitting of the Bx15 either, but what are you trying to say with that Bx15 point of yours? If the Bx55 were to come back to stopping at all the 3rd av. stops, then it wouldn't be a LTD..... What I think you're trying to convey, is that the Bx55 should be an intraborough LTD & have the Bx15 retained as an interborough route.... If that aint it, then IDK what point you're trying to make.....

- The Bx16 used to do what you're suggesting... There are more people that benefit from buses going Pitman > Mundy > Nereid than you might think.

- They have this proposed Bx30 doing what it does, but I'm of the belief that the Bee-Line routes will still be the primary buses sought after along most of Boston Road.... As was said, main problem w/ this rendition of a Bx30 outside of Co-op is that it doesn't serve much of any real points of interest....

- Why should the Bx27 be marred so that the Bx46 (portion) be spared?

- Cutting out what stop on the BxM18 for the WFC???? The route doesn't proximate to that bldg. at all.....

3 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

That bus (Bx46) doesn't do anything for most people who live along that route because of its high headways. The fact that it doesn't serve much of anything besides residential and industrial portions doesn't help either.  

I would've rather the MTA kept the Barretto Park Pool Shuttle over having created the Bx46...

Utter failure.... Should have never been created.

Edited June 25, 2019 by B35 via Church

[paulrivera]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

- They have this proposed Bx30 doing what it does, but I'm of the belief that the Bee-Line routes will still be the primary buses sought after along most of Boston Road.... As was said, main problem w/ this rendition of a Bx30 outside of Co-op is that it doesn't serve much of any real points of interest....

The full speed for a typical Bx30 bus is 15mph while the full speed for a typical Bee-Line bus is 25mph.

It's no contest, really. 🐝

[Lex]

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

The full speed for a typical Bx30 bus is 15mph while the full speed for a typical Bee-Line bus is 25mph.

It's no contest, really. 🐝

That's horribly skewed by route length and speed limits.

It also doesn't address the main issue with the proposed route.

[JeremiahC99]

7 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

The 38 began from the 28, serving the last two sections (4 and 5). The only main difference is serving 206, not 192.

The Bx38 did split from the Bx28, but runs via Section 1-2-3, then to Bay Plaza. The Bx28 serves Section 4 and 5, with Asch Loop service added in 2014 as a result of the previous Co-op City Bus Study. Overnights, Bx28 service serves all the sections, replacing the Bx26, Bx30, and Bx38.

Edited June 25, 2019 by JeremiahC99

[B35 via Church]

7 hours ago, paulrivera said:

The full speed for a typical Bx30 bus is 15mph while the full speed for a typical Bee-Line bus is 25mph.

It's no contest, really. 🐝

This proposed Bx30 will end up being faster than the current Bx30 - as it'll end up taking less people where they're essentially trying to get to....

IDC if this proposed Bx30 moves on par with, or even faster than the Bee-lines, the thing will still be a disservice to Boston rd. patrons & Co-op riders....

Yes, it's incontestable - but it won't be solely on the factor of speed.....

[FamousNYLover]

Bx6 SBS: I think sending SBS to other location might confuse Bx6 local riders.

Bx15 should end at 125th St/2nd Av and start from 3rd Av/125th St and regular route. M125 could start from 125th St/2nd Av. Eastbound bus could end at 2nd Av, and following M15 layover to 126th St and 2nd Av.

BxM2: After Henry Hudson Parkway, BxM2 should go down 96th St to CPW, stop at CPW, then right at CPW, stopping at 86th St and 81st St, then west on 72nd St back to Riverside Drive while northbound bus should go on Central Park West, stopping at 63rd St, 81st, 86th Sts, then west on 110th St to Riverside Drive. I seen lots of people get on for Riverside at 81st St/CPW, Madison Av/84th St.

BxM4: Need to stay on Grand Concourse.

Q50: Majority of Queens resident goes into/from Co-Op City. 

 

 

[paulrivera]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

This proposed Bx30 will end up being faster than the current Bx30 - as it'll end up taking less people where they're essentially trying to get to....

IDC if this proposed Bx30 moves on par with, or even faster than the Bee-lines, the thing will still be a disservice to Boston rd. patrons & Co-op riders....

Yes, it's incontestable - but it won't be solely on the factor of speed.....

Pelham Pkwy/WPR is a major destination only for the SBS Bx12 from Fordham (I think that’s due to rider’s stubbornness tho; the local 12 and 22 as well as the Bee-Lines run the exact same route and no one gets on them.) Pelham Pkwy/WPR from the north is already adequately served by the  , Bx39 and Bee-Line.

On the other end, the Co-op City end stubs short of 90% of wherever most of their residents are going.

You guys are very much right, the present route goes where more people are going (  train, Montefiore, Gun Hill Road, and even Bay Plaza to a lesser extent.) The proposed route would just be an unneeded (borderline wasteful) Bee-Line relief route.

[4 via Mosholu]

17 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

What I think you're trying to convey, is that the Bx55 should be an intraborough LTD & have the Bx15 retained as an interborough route....

Yes, that was my point with this, @B35 via Church.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 hours ago, Lex said:

Even taking the people from Mount Vernon into consideration, the argument doesn't hold up, as people will be congregating right by a station (again, aside from a couple of drop-offs that are a short walk away, every BxM11 stop from Pelham Parkway to the Wakefield terminus is right by a station). Again, the BxM11 generally runs far less frequently than the  (which runs no less frequently than every 12 minutes during most hours, whereas the BxM11 tends to run every 30-60 minutes if it's not peak service), thus making it an awful alternative by virtue of near-nonexistence, which is only exacerbated by vehicular traffic along the different stretches of its route.

Bronx  service only runs express in the peak direction, save for a handful of transitional trains between the AM rush and midday periods, so that point is also moot if the issue is off-peak service to Wakefield (and the BxM11's significance in this regard means increasingly less as you continue further north). Moreover, as good as that express run can be, it's borderline overrated, especially since the design at the northern end of the express run involves branching (Dyre Avenue) trains having to cross over one of the local tracks to go between the express track and the branch line (which actually exacerbates issues with local trains).

My point is that you'll need better arguments than distance from the subway when the distance is rather insignificant. Additionally, the solution to abysmal subway service is to improve it. not try to run an expensive bus that makes the same stops, particularly when the subway service (for all its glaring flaws) is better than in more far-flung areas (say, the Rockaways). None of this necessarily means that I agree with the proposals, but when arguing about the impact distance from the subway has, it helps if there's some significant difference between where the bus stops and subway stations are located, as well as the location and steepness of slopes.

The BxM11 runs along 5th and Madison, neither of which the  does as there is no subway there, not to mention that the express bus makes no stops after Pelham Parkway, so you save time there. I have commuted from the area with the express bus, with the subway and with Metro-North. It really depends on where exactly you are, so unless you have done the commute and done it consistently for several months as I have (I have done it from Mount Vernon just over the border and from Williamsbridge) it's easy to look at a map and draw conclusions.  It's a very difficult and long commute by subway.  

That area is supposedly the more "flatter" part of the Bronx, but it has some very hilly areas.  Subway service is simply slow and not frequent (I don't consider a  train every 12 minutes or so to be "frequent"), and while the BxM11 generally runs every 30 minutes, the  requires its own level of patience being local and making stops all the way into the South Bronx before finally heading into Manhattan, not to mention reliability issues, again not serving the same area of Manhattan that the BxM11 does.

I used to privately teach a few high schoolers up there over the years so I'm quite familiar with the commute. The last time I was up there was to help a guy going into the Army for an upcoming exam up in Mount Vernon. I either used the BxM11 or took Metro-North.  None of the options are stellar, but having options up there helps. It is a long commute and the subway esp. on weekends it's a mess.  The only reason I commuted up there was because the extra cash made it worth it when I had free time, otherwise I wouldn't bother, esp. not with the subway.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[EastFlatbushLarry]

2 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

Bx6 SBS: I think sending SBS to other location might confuse Bx6 local riders.

how? it works on the bx12 SBS & local and mysteriously people have been able to find their way to & fro for several years now

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

Leave the Bx15 alone for Christ's sake. If you want to address the congestion on 125th Street you need to send the M101 to the guillotine ASAP.

[Future ENY OP]

53 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Leave the Bx15 alone for Christ's sake. If you want to address the congestion on 125th Street you need to send the M101 to the guillotine ASAP.

That’s for the Manhattan re-design. 

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

14 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

That’s for the Manhattan re-design. 

That's not the point. The Bx15/Bx15-LTD are delay-prone due to the congestion on 125th Street in Manhattan. This is why the route nearly dies every weekday during rush hours. There's so much commercial traffic in the way on 125th Street (M101 partially to blame) that it kills runtime, which is a reason for the proposed Bx15 reconfiguration.

Edited June 26, 2019 by AlgorithmOfTruth

[Future ENY OP]

19 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

That's not the point. The Bx15/Bx15-LTD are delay-prone due to the congestion on 125th Street in Manhattan. This is why the route nearly dies every weekday during rush hours. There's so much commercial traffic in the way on 125th Street (M101 partially to blame) that it kills runtime, which is a reason for the proposed Bx15 cut.

I wouldn’t pass too much blame on the 101 although part of the problem..  I’d also put blame on the 15 with intra-Bronx traffic. The 55 was the balance between intra-Bronx and the 15 for Manhattanville. 

I say revive the Bx55 local and Limited for intrabronx travel and the Bx15 for intra-Manhattan to the Hub. 

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

4 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I wouldn’t pass too much blame on the 101 although part of the problem...  I’d also put blame on the 15 with intra-Bronx traffic. The 55 was the balance between intra-Bronx and the 15 for Manhattanville. 

I say revive the Bx55 local and Limited for intrabronx travel and the Bx15 for intra-Manhattan to the Hub. 

Remember now, the Bx55 was sent to the cutting block for a reason... If the MTA is looking to save, cutting the Bx15 into two halves will NOT do it! Now you have a new route ("M125") on your hands that will require you to pay numerous B/O's to cover. Like I said before, let the Bx15 be.

Edited June 26, 2019 by AlgorithmOfTruth

[Future ENY OP]

10 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Remember now, the Bx55 was sent to the cutting block for a reason...

.... and creating an M125 will not make a difference. The more I hear about this M125 it should of been the opportunity to reviving the 55. 

I see complaints coming from this end, throgs neck and co-op city once everything gets implemented. 

[checkmatechamp13]

4 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Remember now, the Bx55 was sent to the cutting block for a reason... If the MTA is looking to save, cutting the Bx15 into two halves will NOT do it! Now you have a new route ("M125") on your hands that will require you to pay numerous B/O's to cover. Like I said before, let the Bx15 be.

So instead of paying 2 B/Os to do 3 trips each on the Bx15 you pay 1 B/O to do 3 trips on the Bx15 and 1 B/O to do 3 trips on the M125....simple...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Honestly I feel that the Bx15 should run until at least Lexington Avenue (it can terminate with the M35 and pick-up on Lex across 125th Street), because there's still people who take the buses from points north of 149th into Harlem. I don't think that it should terminate at The Hub. Also, there's only so much room you have now for terminating routes there. Having the Bx15 and this M125 would likely cause some issues.

Edited June 26, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[NBTA]

41 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Honestly I feel that the Bx15 should run until at least Lexington Avenue (it can terminate with the M35 and pick-up on Lex across 125th Street), because there's still people who take the buses from points north of 149th into Harlem. I don't think that it should terminate at The Hub. Also, there's only so much room you have now for terminating routes there. Having the Bx15 and this M125 would likely cause some issues.

The Hub is a horrible terminal, when I went to the GC Meeting, one of the planners said, the 15 and the 125 terminating at The Hub is just a placement basically. I guess after a while, people are going to see that The Hub is a HORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIBLE ....below average terminal.

[MysteriousBtrain]

You gotta know how to set up the Bx15/M125 terminal. If they end up using the bus only lane they put up on the hub into Third Avenue at least for the M125 terminal I see (minimal) problems.

Edited June 27, 2019 by MysteriousBtrain

[KK Local]

Hi, I am new here. My thought is, Since the Bx4A will be shorten to West Farms/Southern Bl. and does not starts/ends with the Bx4. They should renumbered the Bx4A to the Bx14?!

Just my 2 cents worth.😉

[KK Local]

They did it in Queens with the Q19A and Q19B. They are now Q69 and Q49.😆