R179 Discussion Thread

[Javier]

Actually...your right. It would leave a set out...

[ttcsubwayfan]

Wouldn't be the first time. Off the top of my head, R62, R62A and R68s also wouldn't make an even amount of trains, and I'm sure there are more.

[Around the Horn]

When everyone plays quiet on me it's always an indicator that the s#^+ is about to hit the fan and someone doesn't want me running my mouth. On top of that, the MTA was scheduled to begin qualification testing a week ago.....

So the MTA is aware that you update us here?

 

 

Just a heads up to everyone... This may get worse before it gets better.... If there is no train on property within the next 14 days, there is a bigger issue that Bombardier is trying to keep quiet about. I said from day 1 when I created this thread years ago that the order should go to Kawasaki.... Not because I was a fan of there trains, but I read the documents for the technical evaluation and felt it spelled disaster.

 

On another note, I have a question for the subway buffs. If there will be 65 4-car sets, doesnt that leave a set of cars out?

Agreed. Everything now on should go to Kawasaki and this low bidder nonsense needs to go. SEPTA's suffering with their Silverliner V's (which would have gone to Kawasaki, if it weren't for the low bid rule) and I have a feeling the MTA is gonna suffer with these at some point.

 

The 65 sets would indeed leave a set in the yard without a mate.

[cl94]

Wouldn't be the first time. Off the top of my head, R62, R62A and R68s also wouldn't make an even amount of trains, and I'm sure there are more.

 

All of those came in as singles. Odd number of cars was so they could swap a car out if it went bad. Of course, that is all moot now that most of them are linked in 4-5 car sets.

 

Another week and another delay..... This time no one seems to be talking..... Something is NOT good on the horizon.... I have a strong feeling this train is somehow going to fail on burn-in testing..... When everyone plays quiet on me it's always an indicator that the s#^+ is about to hit the fan and someone doesn't want me running my mouth. On top of that, the MTA was scheduled to begin qualification testing a week ago.....

 

Just a heads up to everyone... This may get worse before it gets better.... If there is no train on property within the next 14 days, there is a bigger issue that Bombardier is trying to keep quiet about. I said from day 1 when I created this thread years ago that the order should go to Kawasaki.... Not because I was a fan of there trains, but I read the documents for the technical evaluation and felt it spelled disaster.

 

What a surprise...not. Bombardier hasn't been having good luck lately. They have had major issues with defects and late deliveries. I have been in Toronto a few times in the past couple years and their Bombardier orders for subway and streetcars have been far behind.

[R32 3838]

If these cars don't come in we're f**ked and with the shutdown things will get much worse since there will be no extra cars.

The is supposed to go 600" we need extra equipment for that

[MysteriousBtrain]

If these cars don't come in we're f**ked and with the shutdown things will get much worse since there will be no extra cars.

The is supposed to go 600" we need extra equipment for that

There's only one thing we can do.........

 

 

 

 

 

Have every Member of the NYCT Transit forums sue Bombardier so they know that they messed up big time (and we can split the money we earned evenly, $150 for each member here , everyone except Bombardier wins as that company goes bankrupt)

[GojiMet86]

So the MTA is aware that you update us here?

 

 

Ask SEPTA.

[Lance]

If these cars don't come in we're f**ked and with the shutdown things will get much worse since there will be no extra cars.

The is supposed to go 600" we need extra equipment for that

Calm down. We still have three years or so before the Canarsie tube closure is set to begin.

[B46 via Utica]

There's only one thing we can do.........

Have every Member of the NYCT Transit forums sue Bombardier so they know that they messed up big time (and we can split the money we earned evenly, $150 for each member here , everyone except Bombardier wins as that company goes bankrupt)

Good luck with that, unless you can afford 100s of lawyers the result might not turn out nice.

[Around the Horn]

Ask SEPTA.

Oh, yeah I remember that incident...

[East New York]

So the MTA is aware that you update us here?

 

 

Agreed. Everything now on should go to Kawasaki and this low bidder nonsense needs to go. SEPTA's suffering with their Silverliner V's (which would have gone to Kawasaki, if it weren't for the low bid rule) and I have a feeling the MTA is gonna suffer with these at some point.

 

The 65 sets would indeed leave a set in the yard without a mate.

 

The MTA is most definitely aware of what I post. lol. There is a really funny story with that. I've consulted directly with quite a few executives, and I have a pretty high level of clearance when it comes to information. I've been cursed out a couple times for not paying attention to dates.

 

Most notorious incident is when I posted that MTA would NOT award Orion and it would be the C40LF (a bus that was discontinued at the time) that would flood the streets of NY. Thats started the perfect storm, and my career was actually a bit in jeopardy as I have personally consulted with 32 of the top Transit agencies in North America, and ALL of the suppliers. 

 

Long story short. MTA didn't want it public until a week later. I wasn't paying attention to my notes and accidentally posted it 7 days sooner than I was supposed to. MTA had not notified New Flyer of the award, and an NFI executive contacted me asking where I got this information. I almost had a heart attack! I said "OMG!!!! They don't even know yet!!" Not only did MTA not put it on the books yet, it caused a huge controversy because SEPTA then contacted me as well asking the same thing. They wanted more LF's and not LFR's and when I posted that news..... So they also thought I made up the post because it was impossible that MTA was getting them and they couldn't..... 

 

It also caused a lot of drama because back then I was a fairly new face to the public/fan side of transit. I had been behind the scenes however since 1992. Everyone from here to Subchat and beyond jumped down my back and said I was making up stuff just to drive site views. A week earlier I posted that the R211 was the official designation for the Next Gen train. It would NOT be a 75 footer and the R179 would definitely not be either. A week prior to that, I posted that MTA was making an unprecedented move and ordering tests fleets of 90 buses each from different manufacturers, and that Nova, Orion, and NFI were confirmed. There was also another manufacturer they wouldn't tell me the name of. lol. It turned out to be Prevost. After that, I took a long leave of absence because you all gave me grey hair.

 

I then decided that I would shut up until that "resurrected just for the MTA C40LF" showed up on the property. From that day forward, I only give you all what you can handle, and things change so much now there are many things the MTA has in fact requested that I don't post some things.  We all learned the hard way that people just can't handle too much information at one time.

 

 

 

Now back on topic: This major disaster that we are calling the R179...... Drum roll ladies and gentleman...... 

 

The s#^! has officially hit the fan. Remember that train someone thought they saw on the freeway? I later posted it could be true because we were expecting delivery any day? Then it was confirmed that MTA was ready to begin qualification testing? Well that train on the road could have in fact been a rejected car. Again, they are keeping quiet on me as I said, but I did a little digging, and I appears I was definitely on the right track. 

 

There are in fact major issues on the horizon. I can't confirm what they are, but the pilot was supposedly rejected in audit inspection, and now pushed back to late August at best. 

 

I don't know what to say about this anymore, so with that update, I stand down until I actually see a train on property. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this part, but if Bombardier doesn't get their act together or offer a compensation package that MTA will love, I can see an immediate cancel, and a transfer of award to Kawasaki.

 

If I were to one making the decision. The contract would be immediately cancelled. A new contract would be drafted for Brand new R160's at once. Make it simple. Make it fast. Drop the R179 program all together. Save millions on training, parts, logistics, maintenance, and documents. Sole award for proven trains. Let's worry about issues that may arise with the R211. We should't be having all these technical difficulties with a train thats based off one we already have. I would expect something like this with an R211 class of car. This is absolutely ridiculous. I'm over these old tired ass R32. As my luck would have it that's all I ever get on the and the .... Can't remember the last time I had a 160... Although the R143 on my the other day was pretty cool. 

[Union Tpke]

Now back on topic: This major disaster that we are calling the R179...... Drum roll ladies and gentleman...... 

 

The s#^! has officially hit the fan. Remember that train someone thought they saw on the freeway? I later posted it could be true because we were expecting delivery any day? Then it was confirmed that MTA was ready to begin qualification testing? Well that train on the road could have in fact been a rejected car. Again, they are keeping quiet on me as I said, but I did a little digging, and I appears I was definitely on the right track. 

 

There are in fact major issues on the horizon. I can't confirm what they are, but the pilot was supposedly rejected in audit inspection, and now pushed back to late August at best. 

 

I don't know what to say about this anymore, so with that update, I stand down until I actually see a train on property. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this part, but if Bombardier doesn't get their act together or offer a compensation package that MTA will love, I can see an immediate cancel, and a transfer of award to Kawasaki.

 

If I were to one making the decision. The contract would be immediately cancelled. A new contract would be drafted for Brand new R160's at once. Make it simple. Make it fast. Drop the R179 program all together. Save millions on training, parts, logistics, maintenance, and documents. Sole award for proven trains. Let's worry about issues that may arise with the R211. We should't be having all these technical difficulties with a train thats based off one we already have. I would expect something like this with an R211 class of car. This is absolutely ridiculous. I'm over these old tired ass R32. As my luck would have it that's all I ever get on the and the .... Can't remember the last time I had a 160... Although the R143 on my the other day was pretty cool. 

 

Wait..... even after they got rid of the original test set, they messed up again. Yikes. I agree. Cancel the order.

[Around the Horn]

Thank you for the background info ENY.I was lurker during that very interesting week and was not yet a member.

 

Moving on...

If the MTA cancels the order as you suggest they should, how long would it take for us to see a pilot? Would this move "reset" the clock all the way back to zero?

[Metro CSW]

The MTA may as well just move forward to the R211s adding more 300 cars than currently proposed or what ENY said about the R160s. One or the other doesn't sound bad because it's either train with familiar (160) or newest (211) hardware/software. They may as well have the 300 (or equivalent) phased as the gangway test train order (R211T) unless it becomes a failure, in which I'll cross my fingers during the phase period....

 

But yeah, the MTA may as well cancel the order. Maybe Kawasaki will do better because I'm also getting sick of seeing R32s of the C and the J because of unflattering, bittersweet luck lol

 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[TheNewYorkElevated]

Looks like if the cancels the R179 order, it's going to damage Bombardier hard.

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

Looks like if the cancels the R179 order, it's going to damage Bombardier hard.

 

The funniest thing is, the whole R179 conversation was brought up in my robotics class today. The teacher's assistant was talking about RFPs (request for proposal) and mentioned Bombardier and Kawasaki submitting said RFPs for building the new R211s. At that point I mentioned that doing so would be pointless and that giving the order to Kawasaki would end with you actually getting a working train on time instead of Bombardier, where you would end up waiting until you grow old before the test train arrives fully operational and working on MTA property.

[rbrome]

The MTA may as well just move forward to the R211s adding more 300 cars than currently proposed or what ENY said about the R160s. One or the other doesn't sound bad because it's either train with familiar (160) or newest (211) hardware/software. They may as well have the 300 (or equivalent) phased as the gangway test train order (R211T) unless it becomes a failure, in which I'll cross my fingers during the phase period....

...

 

 

Hmm. That would be interesting. So just cancel R179, accelerate R211, and add on an option for 300 R211Ts... I like it. 

[Eric B]

 This major disaster that we are calling the R179...... Drum roll ladies and gentleman...... 

 

The s#^! has officially hit the fan. Remember that train someone thought they saw on the freeway? I later posted it could be true because we were expecting delivery any day? Then it was confirmed that MTA was ready to begin qualification testing? Well that train on the road could have in fact been a rejected car. Again, they are keeping quiet on me as I said, but I did a little digging, and I appears I was definitely on the right track. 

 

There are in fact major issues on the horizon. I can't confirm what they are, but the pilot was supposedly rejected in audit inspection, and now pushed back to late August at best. 

 

I don't know what to say about this anymore, so with that update, I stand down until I actually see a train on property. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this part, but if Bombardier doesn't get their act together or offer a compensation package that MTA will love, I can see an immediate cancel, and a transfer of award to Kawasaki.

 

If I were to one making the decision. The contract would be immediately cancelled. A new contract would be drafted for Brand new R160's at once. Make it simple. Make it fast. Drop the R179 program all together. Save millions on training, parts, logistics, maintenance, and documents. Sole award for proven trains. Let's worry about issues that may arise with the R211. We should't be having all these technical difficulties with a train thats based off one we already have. I would expect something like this with an R211 class of car. This is absolutely ridiculous. I'm over these old tired ass R32. As my luck would have it that's all I ever get on the and the .... Can't remember the last time I had a 160... Although the R143 on my the other day was pretty cool. 

Wow!

A 160 option is what they should have done all along. Maybe now, we'll see up to #9998, for the first 24 cars. 

[Metro CSW]

Hmm. That would be interesting. So just cancel R179, accelerate R211, and add on an option for 300 R211Ts... I like it.

I mean with the R188 order at completion with not much issues, just conversions of a previous order or small amount of added carriages (C cars), skipping the 179 TWICE shouldn't be a big deal. Even for the MTA and us in site.

 

....And I had faith in Bombardier for the longest time too.... #tragic

 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[R32 3838]

Even if the R179's were to be delivered you'll still have a good chunk of R32's remaining to be shifted to another line, remember the going 600" requries extra cars. This is one reason why the mta is keeping the R32's. If this order is canceled all this would do is keep the R32's currently where they are, and when the shutdown down, that's when shit will hit the fan because they are gonna need those extra cars especially for the due to them wanting full length trains.

I honestly hope they do cancel and redo the order and make the majority of the order 5 car sets instead of 4 so this way the can go full length

[Lance]

First things first, if the MTA cancels the 179 order, the likelihood of us seeing new cars on the B-Division before 2020 will be incredibly slim. They can't simply contact another builder and have that builder make hundreds of new cars at the blink of an eye. Even the idea of getting Kawasaki to build a couple hundred R160 clones would be a challenge. There's a reason why car purchases and builds are quite a process. It not only has to do with the great bureaucracy that is government projects, but also with the builder(s) as well. Kawasaki would have to go through the whole build prep or whatever to get themselves ready to build a brand new car, even if it would be similar to the 160s. That's not even considering the fact that most builders have other orders they're working on at the moment. Any order from NYC Transit will likely not be pushed to the front of the line simply because another builder has become incompetent.

 

I'd rather the MTA keeps on the present course with the 179 order simply because it will become a headache otherwise. I will say this though - I'm glad they declined the 188 order.

[yeayo]

Looks like if the cancels the R179 order, it's going to damage Bombardier hard.

R179 will not be cancelled. Federal funds are allocated for the project. MTA would have to return the money to the FTA. Makes no sense when production cars in process at this point. 

[East New York]

Thank you for the background info ENY.I was lurker during that very interesting week and was not yet a member.

 

Moving on...

If the MTA cancels the order as you suggest they should, how long would it take for us to see a pilot? Would this move "reset" the clock all the way back to zero?

 

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take that long, and I will explain a bit more.

 

The MTA may as well just move forward to the R211s adding more 300 cars than currently proposed or what ENY said about the R160s. One or the other doesn't sound bad because it's either train with familiar (160) or newest (211) hardware/software. They may as well have the 300 (or equivalent) phased as the gangway test train order (R211T) unless it becomes a failure, in which I'll cross my fingers during the phase period....

 

But yeah, the MTA may as well cancel the order. Maybe Kawasaki will do better because I'm also getting sick of seeing R32s of the C and the J because of unflattering, bittersweet luck lol

 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

See below.

 

First things first, if the MTA cancels the 179 order, the likelihood of us seeing new cars on the B-Division before 2020 will be incredibly slim. They can't simply contact another builder and have that builder make hundreds of new cars at the blink of an eye. Even the idea of getting Kawasaki to build a couple hundred R160 clones would be a challenge. There's a reason why car purchases and builds are quite a process. It not only has to do with the great bureaucracy that is government projects, but also with the builder(s) as well. Kawasaki would have to go through the whole build prep or whatever to get themselves ready to build a brand new car, even if it would be similar to the 160s. That's not even considering the fact that most builders have other orders they're working on at the moment. Any order from NYC Transit will likely not be pushed to the front of the line simply because another builder has become incompetent.

 

I'd rather the MTA keeps on the present course with the 179 order simply because it will become a headache otherwise. I will say this though - I'm glad they declined the 188 order.

 

Actually, it is possible, and Federal Monies don't really make a difference at the end of the day at all. Not only that but the MTA is investing in this as well. If they wanted to, they can do the exact same thing Department of Buses did. he CBG award to Orion was with FTA money, MTA cancelled the order and awarded/transferred the contract to New Flyer citing many issues that could arise with the introduction of buses to a fleet when the company was going through a situation where quality control could be affected. They can legally do the exact same with this contract as well.

 

Not only that, but Kawasaki could theoretically put the R160 back in production in as little as 6 months. If it was to keep the designation R179, it still wouldn't take too much longer as the architecture is built off a train already in service. Kawasaki already has the ability to start up R160 production in no time, and there was internal talk about what could be done if said order was cancelled. It's not anything new for Kawasaki. They don't have to design a new train, and they already have the tolling for the design. All they have to do is get the supply chain ramped up. Now if the train was of a different class, then it would take them much longer. They could have a pilot in 12 months. At this point, Bombardier has continued to change their delivery dates, and they are having many technical difficulties. 

 

Kawasaki has the capacity, and experience. The don't have to do anything at all theoretically except re-start the assembly line. This is what Kawasaki says. Thats one of the reasons they blew Bombardier away on the technial evaluation and overall proposal of the R179. Bombardier won because they quoted a lower price, and promised the same delivery schedule as Kawasaki. You know my specialty is surface transit. I'm just the messenger for RTO.

 

R179 will not be cancelled. Federal funds are allocated for the project. MTA would have to return the money to the FTA. Makes no sense when production cars in process at this point. 

 

It may be better for MTA to just roll with what they have now and just ride it out, but it can still be cancelled if they wanted to do it. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It's not like they haven't done it before. Aren't the R188s (the newly built ones) clones of the R142As? And the R142A is an even older car than the R160. Really think the MTA should strongly consider transferring the R179 contract to Kawasaki if they can. I'd prefer to see the cars be part of the R211 contract, but since that's going to be a very different car from the R143s and R160s, it's probably better if the R179s are R160 clones, since that's a proven design.

Edited July 15, 2016 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Lance]

Using the 188s as an example, it took nearly two years from winning the bidding process to having the first cars available for testing. Even under the best of circumstances and considering the differences between the age of the 142s to 188s and 160s to 179s, it will still likely be another year before any Kawasaki-built car would be ready for testing. Unless the MTA is absolutely certain Bombardier will not be able to deliver these cars, they need to keep the order as is, if not for anything else, then to keep the process from reverting back to square one.