MTA Bus Operations: Fleet & Depots

[T J Trainman]

I think they are coming in like that. 

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

6 hours ago, Rick44 said:

Not sure if this belongs in Random Thoughts or here, but I might get a better answer here.

Why are some of the new ENY Xcelsiors getting the "New York City Bus" decal? Is that ENY placing on decals or are they being delivered with that on there? 

I think it's ENY doing it. Only about 75% of their buses have it. Besides, how many Xcelsiors in the new scheme have New Flyer been delivering? They know its just the MTA brand, and it's just ENYs batch with the NYCB lettering. I could understand if it was the whole order coming in like that, but nah. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by XcelsiorBoii4888

[Via Garibaldi 8]

God... They can't ever keep anything consistent. They were supposedly doing away with the whole lettering scheme to make it easier. They should keep it that way. It looks cleaner and less cluttered. Doesn't help that you have people at some depots like Kingsbridge that have peeled off some of the letters on every single 40 footer bus to have the signage read differently.  Waste of money and time.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Via Garibaldi 8

[East New York]

57 minutes ago, Rick44 said:

Not sure if this belongs in Random Thoughts or here, but I might get a better answer here.

Why are some of the new ENY Xcelsiors getting the "New York City Bus" decal? Is that ENY placing on decals or are they being delivered with that on there? 

 

56 minutes ago, T J Trainman said:

I think they are coming in like that. 

Definitely not coming in like that. The new branding is simply (MTA).

Thats EN putting those on. You know we are a different breed over here in Brooklyn lol. They are the ones who put  Bus a couple 4800's and 7000 E10's.

Someone was bored. 

4 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Please explain to me what that has to do with anything.

Because in my eyes, the less time buses spend going to/from and in depots equates to more reliable service without the need to actually have more buses than already exist.

Bus operators don't exactly NEED to drive back to the depot every time their time is over, you know.

Yeah, but it doesn't work like that. Eventually, which is every day the bus is going to need to go back to the depot.

Less time going to and from a depot does not necessarily equate to more reliable service. In fact it would decrease the reliability of service because buses would breakdown more. There needs to be pre-trip inspections, maintenance checks and preventive maintenance performed. You cant just keep buses out on the road like that. They need to be cleaned and they need to have all systems and fluids checked. 

In terms of electric buses, that will be a different story as you can keep them out a bit longer, however that has to be evaluated and that will take some time. In the meanwhile each manufacturer has a set a maximum mileage or run time that mandates the bus needs to be removed from service at said time for maintenance reasons. If you continue to run any vehicle for long periods like that you are going to develop problems. You are going to have maintenance issues. It is a machine that needs rest, so what he said actually has something to do with everything.

It's also not a good idea to have bus operators doing relief all over the place every day in the middle, or the terminal of every line.

And contrary to what it may seem, you actually will need more buses. You will now need a greater spare factor, and and more relief buses.

With the system we have now, buses are typically out all day anyway, and pull in once. Some not at all. You could pull what you are talking about off in some other cities, but not this one. Especially the way our peek service operates, and the size of the network overall.

So yes sometime bus operators will need to drive back to a depot because the bus may need to be scheduled for maintenance, refueled, or needed by another operator for another run. 

Something else that everyone should note is that 80% of transit agencies, including MTA do not spec fuel gauges on their buses. So running them all day and all night is not feasible either. 

[LTA1992]

6 hours ago, East New York said:

 

Definitely not coming in like that. The new branding is simply (MTA).

Thats EN putting those on. You know we are a different breed over here in Brooklyn lol. They are the ones who put  Bus a couple 4800's and 7000 E10's.

Someone was bored. 

Yeah, but it doesn't work like that. Eventually, which is every day the bus is going to need to go back to the depot.

Less time going to and from a depot does not necessarily equate to more reliable service. In fact it would decrease the reliability of service because buses would breakdown more. There needs to be pre-trip inspections, maintenance checks and preventive maintenance performed. You cant just keep buses out on the road like that. They need to be cleaned and they need to have all systems and fluids checked. 

In terms of electric buses, that will be a different story as you can keep them out a bit longer, however that has to be evaluated and that will take some time. In the meanwhile each manufacturer has a set a maximum mileage or run time that mandates the bus needs to be removed from service at said time for maintenance reasons. If you continue to run any vehicle for long periods like that you are going to develop problems. You are going to have maintenance issues. It is a machine that needs rest, so what he said actually has something to do with everything.

It's also not a good idea to have bus operators doing relief all over the place every day in the middle, or the terminal of every line.

And contrary to what it may seem, you actually will need more buses. You will now need a greater spare factor, and and more relief buses.

With the system we have now, buses are typically out all day anyway, and pull in once. Some not at all. You could pull what you are talking about off in some other cities, but not this one. Especially the way our peek service operates, and the size of the network overall.

So yes sometime bus operators will need to drive back to a depot because the bus may need to be scheduled for maintenance, refueled, or needed by another operator for another run. 

Something else that everyone should note is that 80% of transit agencies, including MTA do not spec fuel gauges on their buses. So running them all day and all night is not feasible either. 

Well I was talking in the realm of electrics only. Since, at least in the Proterra world, they tout the lack of a need to have buses in the depot more than necessary. The whole point of on-route charging being to reduce the need for buses to ever see a depot outside of scheduled and/or urgent maintenance as well as required service levels.

We KNOW that the more you run something, the more likely it is to breakdown. So upon having that knowledge, and with ever increasing vehicle intelligence, why can't that be planned once all the needed data is gathered?

And if the MTA truly is looking to commit to an all electric operation (since we all know things can change), it just seems like the day that happens, the current practices would seem excessive. I also think the coming network redesigns could address the B/O situation as well. 

But, this is why I ask questions. Otherwise, I'd never know.

[Rick44]

14 hours ago, East New York said:

Definitely not coming in like that. The new branding is simply (MTA).

Thats EN putting those on. You know we are a different breed over here in Brooklyn lol. They are the ones who put  Bus a couple 4800's and 7000 E10's.

Someone was bored. 

 

17 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

I think it's ENY doing it. Only about 75% of their buses have it. Besides, how many Xcelsiors in the new scheme have New Flyer been delivering? They know its just the MTA brand, and it's just ENYs batch with the NYCB lettering. I could understand if it was the whole order coming in like that, but nah. 

I figure as much lol, #BrooklynThings. Thanks for the clarification folks!

[MysteriousBtrain]

6126 has different screens from the 1000's, new 7000 XD40s, and 8504. I thought the vendor for the screens was chosen already so I'm a bit confused.

[JeremiahC99]

17 hours ago, East New York said:

Definitely not coming in like that. The new branding is simply (MTA).

Thats EN putting those on. You know we are a different breed over here in Brooklyn lol. They are the ones who put  Bus a couple 4800's and 7000 E10's.

Someone was bored. 

I hope that is the case, because those brands should be off by the time its either 2020 or when this merger of NYCT and MTA Bus is complete.

[East New York]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I hope that is the case, because those brands should be off by the time its either 2020 or when this merger of NYCT and MTA Bus is complete.

What are you hoping that’s the case for? I just said what’s happening here. 

It’s only a systems merger coming for right now anyway. The operational merger was complete in 2008. 

For the time being there will still be 2 different divisions. Unless the State of NY takes over funding of MTA Bus, and the unions work out a deal, the divisions will still operate the way they do now. 

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, East New York said:

What are you hoping that’s the case for? I just said what’s happening here. 

That’s was for the statement about the new Cuomo buses coming in with titles. I was taken by surprise when I saw one of the East NY XD40s in that scheme sporting the New York City Bus titles. I was like “This isn’t the first Xcelsior delivered in the Cuomo Scheme, so am I dreaming? Is this for real?”

21 hours ago, East New York said:

Someone was bored.

I wonder who it was? The management at the depot who told the painters to add those titles? Also, I think they really need to add something like “Funded by Governor Andrew Cuomo” on these new buses, since God (Cuomo) is trying to get his legacy onto the MTA bus fleet. Maybe this might be his campaign for a third term (although good luck getting NYC voters to vote for him)

1 hour ago, East New York said:

Unless the State of NY takes over funding of MTA Bus, and the unions work out a deal, the divisions will still operate the way they do now. 

The state of NY want to take over funding for MTA Bus? I’m surprised since Emperor Cuomo is having an argument with Sir DeBlasio the first over MTA funding and it may get worse, even though Cuomo has diverted money for other purposes. Look at how he forced DeBlasio to fork over $418 million for a subway plan against his will.

[East New York]

Dude....  What in the hell are you talking about? First off Cuomo doesn’t fund anything. The State of New York and the federal government does. He just allocates funds on behalf of the state.

On another note, This “Cuomo” wrap, as everyone is dubbing is an inaccurate label anyway. MTA has been working on almost everything introduced under him for quite a while. The only thing he has done is speed things up and get more involved.

The new scheme and amenities were introduced on buses that were funded 100% by the FTA. Not the state. The old scheme was dated, and talk of changing it has been years in the making. 

Who put the NYCB titles on the buses is not important either.

 

[MHV9218]

Tell you one thing though, I'd bet that while everybody was in line to change the scheme, doing the NYS colors was no coincidence with Cuomo. He's pushed that on the Bridge and Tunnels fleet and infrastructure almost personally, and all that NYS "Excelsior" branding on the SAS stations was his work. I wouldn't give him credit for the new scheme, but I'd blame him for the wonky colors it ended up with!

Edited July 31, 2018 by MHV9218

[NewFlyerFan]

On a slight change of topic, I believe 7488 was spotted on the Q3 yesterday.

[King Transit]

16 minutes ago, NewFlyerFan said:

On a slight change of topic, I believe 7488 was spotted on the Q3 yesterday.

Yep , R.Davis has sent a video yesterday.

[Brillant93]

Question but will future sbs routes will be a mixed fleet of standard buses and artics in practice? I know the B46 sbs is going to be mixed and currently the Bx6 sbs is sort of mixed as having two standards on the line and the Q53 sbs have used 40 footers to help with over crowding. 

[Jdog14]

37 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Question but will future sbs routes will be a mixed fleet of standard buses and artics in practice? I know the B46 sbs is going to be mixed and currently the Bx6 sbs is sort of mixed as having two standards on the line and the Q53 sbs have used 40 footers to help with over crowding. 

Only reason the 46 is gonna be mixed is because of the ridership and fleet dynamics. I wont be shocked if they convert the fleet to all artic to save money. 

[Future ENY OP]

2 minutes ago, Jdog14 said:

Only reason the 46 is gonna be mixed is because of the ridership and fleet dynamics. I wont be shocked if they convert the fleet to all artic to save money. 

The B46 will need at least 35 full time artics plus spares for that to happen. Which could also mean FB would have to get rid of 1 or 2 routes for that to happen in the present day. 

[Brillant93]

29 minutes ago, Jdog14 said:

Only reason the 46 is gonna be mixed is because of the ridership and fleet dynamics. I wont be shocked if they convert the fleet to all artic to save money. 

 

24 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

The B46 will need at least 35 full time artics plus spares for that to happen. Which could also mean FB would have to get rid of 1 or 2 routes for that to happen in the present day. 

The reason why I asked is become some routes across the city may need a mixed need of fleet sizes for different times of the day. I thought maybe the MTA might practice a mixed fleet of sorts for ridership instead of converting a route to artics. Not sure if other agencies across the world does this but it seems like the MTA might practice this in the future. From what i'm seeing. 

[JeremiahC99]

45 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

The B46 will need at least 35 full time artics plus spares for that to happen. Which could also mean FB would have to get rid of 1 or 2 routes for that to happen in the present day. 

I think the actual number of artic buses for all B46 SBS needs may be 32, and I say this because if the MTA wanted to replace the current 48 XD40s on the B46 SBS, they will probably continue their practice of putting in one artic bus for 1.5 standards, which I find a little ridiculous. What you also need to know is that not all 48 buses are out at the same time roaming up and down Utica Avenue, so expect the same thing to happen to the B46 SBS artics when they do it full time (I think around 20-25 out of 32 would be used at any given time), and while they would have room for 19 artics (provide you retire the buses), I'm not sure if they can even hold another 13 buses there if they don't move buses or the bus routes, and also, what routes would you move out of FB?

Edited July 31, 2018 by JeremiahC99

[JeremiahC99]

29 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

 

The reason why I asked is become some routes across the city may need a mixed need of fleet sizes for different times of the day. I thought maybe the MTA might practice a mixed fleet of sorts for ridership instead of converting a route to artics. Not sure if other agencies across the world does this but it seems like the MTA might practice this in the future. From what i'm seeing. 

I think the B46 SBS would be a great example for this. The bus I was on today (7649) was empty, and there was one that came before it (7304) that probably had half a seated oad, and this was at 9:30 this morning,

[limitednyc]

10 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I think the actual number of artic buses for all B46 SBS needs may be 32, and I say this because if the MTA wanted to replace the current 48 XD40s on the B46 SBS, they will probably continue their practice of putting in one artic bus for 1.5 standards, which I find a little ridiculous. What you also need to know is that not all 48 buses are out at the same time roaming up and down Utica Avenue, so expect the same thing to happen to the B46 SBS artics when they do it full time (I think around 20-25 out of 32 would be used at any given time), and while they would have room for 19 artics (provide you retire the buses), I'm not sure if they can even hold another 13 buses there if they don't move buses or the bus routes, and also, what routes would you move out of FB?

not that the current  b44 peek + spear need is 32 not the current assignment of 38.  so when they receive the new xd 60's  they will be able to make peek service witch will be 57,  29  or b46sbs  converision but there won't be any spears . 

[East New York]

48 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Question but will future sbs routes will be a mixed fleet of standard buses and artics in practice? I know the B46 sbs is going to be mixed and currently the Bx6 sbs is sort of mixed as having two standards on the line and the Q53 sbs have used 40 footers to help with over crowding. 

It will be as needed. Whatever the route calls for is what will happen. It’s not a standard thing sand never has been. I will be going over the next 20 pending SBS routes starting this morning.

5 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

The B46 will need at least 35 full time artics plus spares for that to happen. Which could also mean FB would have to get rid of 1 or 2 routes for that to happen in the present day. 

Why would they need to get rid of a route? They would just be replacing standards with artics. And they would only need about 32 artics with spares if they do a standard conversion and increase headways. That will replace the all the standards on the line, and additional spare factor would also be included with the B44+, which would share the fleet. If they increase service then yes about 35 would be needed. But 48 buses would be displaced.

7 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I think the actual number of artic buses for all B46 SBS needs may be 32, and I say this because if the MTA wanted to replace the current 48 XD40s on the B46 SBS, they will probably continue their practice of putting in one artic bus for 1.5 standards, which I find a little ridiculous. What you also need to know is that all 48 buses are not out at the same time roaming up and down Utica Avenue, and I would expect the same thing to happen to the 19 extra artics (I think 10 or so would be used at any given time). Also, I believe FB will have room for 19 more artics without moving any routes. All they have to do is get rid of their RTS buses (good luck with that), replace those with the new buses, and you're set. Since they have around 68 RTSes awaiting retirement, I was expecting this:

• 48 new 2018 SBS buses will come in, knock the 2015 XD40s off the B46 SBS, and retire 48 RTS.
• The 19 additional artics come in to FB, and since 19 artics is equivalent to 28-29 standards (equation for that is 19*1.5), all remaining RTS would leave FB.

17 additional artics. The B44+ needs more than it has now during the school season. 

During normal school season rush hour you can easily have about 40 standards out there at a time. Some in transit, some deadheading, and other on layover or swing. 

9 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

 

The reason why I asked is become some routes across the city may need a mixed need of fleet sizes for different times of the day. I thought maybe the MTA might practice a mixed fleet of sorts for ridership instead of converting a route to artics. Not sure if other agencies across the world does this but it seems like the MTA might practice this in the future. From what i'm seeing. 

It’s not a practice here now. It’s either one or the other. MTA evaluates the route and bases it off the findings. At that point it is decided if the line will be artics or standard. Some lines may start with standard like the Bx6+, B46+, and B82+ for example. When buses become available and the line warrants conversion then it will happen. The 6, 82 and like in the future the 46 will go all artics. 

The only mixed fleet will be the B46, which is not a standard practice. The Bx6 is in conversion. Those last 2 buses are only used during rush hours and weekends for the most part.  

10 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

not that the current  b44 peek + spear need is 32 not the current assignment of 38.  so when they receive the new xd 60's  they will be able to make peek service witch will be 57,  29  or b46sbs  converision but there won't be any spears . 

The school season assignment for peak B44+ service plus spares will be 41. 38 without. The spare factor will be included with the B46+. There are always spares. 

[limitednyc]

3 minutes ago, East New York said:

 

The school season assignment for peak B44+ service plus spares will be 41. 38 without. The spare factor will be included with the B46+. There are always spares. 

i thought that the peek bus requirement [so] is 28 down from 32 when service began.

[Just New York]

3 hours ago, NewFlyerFan said:

On a slight change of topic, I believe 7488 was spotted on the Q3 yesterday.

7487 is the the Q3 as well

[Future ENY OP]

53 minutes ago, East New York said:

Why would they need to get rid of a route? They would just be replacing standards with artics. And they would only need about 32 artics with spares if they do a standard conversion and increase headways. That will replace the all the standards on the line, and additional spare factor would also be included with the B44+, which would share the fleet. If they increase service then yes about 35 would be needed. But 48 buses would be displaced.

 

Clearly understand. When I initially wrote it I thought a route would need to be remove from FB for additional room for the artics. However, after your explanation and what’s needed to done it’s just a even swap of equipment only.